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I'm looking for the next thing to do to this motor and I'm thinking Edelbrock heads, but I'm curious what I will see out of them. I honestly have no idea where I sit in the HP range right now, but I do know what I have and where I want to be. Eventually I would like to be at about 500 to the ground...eventually, lol.
What I currently have...
69 XH 9790071 block
62 heads
RV cam
Headers
Edelbrock intake
Edelbrock 750cfm carb

What kind of gains can I expect out of the heads and are there other things I should do at the same time?

I was talking with someone at Butler today while ordering a part and I asked them what it would take to get to 500hp and they said about $13K, that seemed kind of high to me, but that could be because all he knew was I have a 400, not what block, etc.
 

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Hey Jason, Butler is telling you about the correct price. Even with your block it is still going to cost you very close to 13 grand, which this is about the average price between all the big name Pontiac builders to make that kind of HP. You are pretty much going to have to stroke the 400 to get that power amongst other things. I am gong through Larry Snyder in SC who owns Precision Automotive Specialist to build my 400 who is a Pontiac guy and specializes in Pontiac engines and very knowledgable in them and for the same thing Butler would do he is still almost 11 grand, just doesnt have the big name to pay for. So all in all if you do all the work yourself you will save a grand or two of money, but Pontiac parts are expensive.. I would say almost one and a half times more then Chebby engine parts.
 

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I agree that price is probably about right.

Pontiac motors are not huge HP motors, but they are huge torque motors. So you pay a premium for those who have what it takes to get higher HP numbers out of these motors.

The great news is, even without high HP numbers your Pontiac can perform really well.
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
Copy thanks guys. So what kind of gains could I expect too see out of Edelbrock heads if I put a set on?
 

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Just taking your heads off and putting E heads on you could loose performance.The total package is what counts.To make up for thermal loss you should up the CR some.Bigger ports with the wrong cam can make the engine lazy.Talk to a good experiance pontiac engine builder.Tell them your wants and your goals before you start making knee jerk purchases.JMO,Tom

If this is going to be a street driven 400,500 HP IMO wont be much fun to drive.Tom
 

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Well, I worked on this post for 30 minutes then lost it, before posting. :(

So, this time I'll just post a little at a time. :yes

You can have a 500hp Pontiac engine for less than $10,000. Len Williams can build you one. He can build you one of his 400 block stroker shortblocks, upgraded with a forged crank, then add alum heads and the correct cam and easily hit 500hp.

http://lenwilliamsautomachine.com/455_Short_Block.html

Len's pump gas iron head 455, with forged rods, pistons, and a hyd flat tappet cam, will make over 400hp, for $4700 + shipping. With either a stock factory crank or a forged crank, you've got a solid foundation for Just over $5000. For $6000, you could easily hit 450hp+, with this combo, just by adding the correct roller cam set-up. Lighter, premium pistons, are also a good upgrade, which will only add a couple of hundred bucks.

http://lenwilliamsautomachine.com/455_Long_Block.h

http://www.sdperformance.com/viewProduct.php?productID=1815

http://www.sdperformance.com/viewProduct.php?productID=1816

Sandoval sells 550hp strokers for around $10,000.

http://www.sandovalperformance.com/#!product/prd12/2301961911/daily-driver-series-strokers

Hey, if you really wanna make some power, Spotts sells a 505 aftermarket shortblock for just over $6000. Or for a little more, you can go with a forged crank 535 ! :shock:

http://www.spottsperformance.com/IA2%20engine%20block2

The KRE D-port heads are good enuff for 500hp, out of the box, according to them. Looks like the 85cc heads, with bolts, will be just over $2200 shipped. :smile22:

http://www.krepower.com/Pontiac%20Aluminum%20D-port%20Cylinder%20Heads.htm
 

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All the big builders are charging roughly the same amount for a complete engine that has around 500 HP with a Hyd roller set up, stroker forged inners except for crank and alum heads. They are all around 12-13 grand, as I have gotten quotes from all of them for my 69 400. This includes Butler, Kauffman, Spots, Len Williams and Jim Lehart of CVM . If you want to go without the Hyd roller set up you can get the set up for roughly 10-11 grand depending on who you go through. If you can find someone like I did who, is a good Pontiac builder but not a big popular builder like those I listed, you can get everything Hyd roller, all stroker forged parts, alum heads for about the price I am getting mine done for from 10-11 grand. The prices will also vary depending on what exactly you are supplying them with, which is the block.
 

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"...They are all around 12-13 grand, as I have gotten quotes from all of them for my 69 400. This includes Butler, Kauffman, Spots, Len Williams and Jim Lehart of CVM ..."

We have all read a lot of stuff online, including on Pontiac forums, some of which is just absolutely not true. I, along with many others, have posted things that we later discovered were not true. I hate to give fellow Pontiac lovers bad info. Therefore, in light of that, and defifnitely NOT to start an argument, I'd like to look at this statement a little closer.

Have absolutely no doubts whatsoever that all the above mentioned Big Name Pontiac shops, EXCEPT LEN WILLIAMS, would charge "12-13 grand" for the engine we are discussing. However, I just went back to Len's website, and did some math. I'm not super smart. But I did make an A in most of my basic math courses. And I just absolutely can not get the numbers for one of Len's engines to add up to $12,000.

So, I'd like for ya'll to help me with the math and point out anything I may be missing. Hey, I can make mistakes, just like anybody else. So, lets go thru this and see what it adds up to.

1st of all, Len doesn't list an engine exactly like we are talking about. So, let's start with the closest thing he has listed. It's a 400 with alum heads, Ross pistons, Eagle rods, Moroso pan, roller tip rockers, an SFI balancer, an RPM intake, and even includes a manual trans flywheel, among other things. Ya'll go down the list to see EXACTLY what all this engine includes for $7200.

NOW, lets add the cost of the parts that would need to be changed, to build an engine like we are discussing. 1st, we can subtract the cost of the difference in a Ram manual flywheel and a new flex plate, since most guys are running an auto trans.

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/ram-1557?seid=srese1&gclid=CjwKEAjwh8exBRDyyqqH9pvf1ncSJAAu4OE3gCEsI7tDhq1apXr-aKg_pbkiEWMFgZgEGVK__JKE4RoCAJvw_wcB

http://www.jegs.com/i/Scat/942/FP-455-SFI/10002/-1?CAWELAID=1854477570&CAGPSPN=pla&catargetid=230006180000849867&cadevice=c&gclid=CjwKEAjwh8exBRDyyqqH9pvf1ncSJAAu4OE3hmFpzv0i9JlkSiWapH4voyAqnQ2kUAfyYTfIVkV7_hoCYszw_wcB

So, let's call it $200 difference. $7200 - $200 = $7000

Now, lets add the cost of a forged crank. Since Spotts retails 'em for $625, let's assume that Len can buy 'em for no more than $600. So, I'll assume that a machined stock 400 crank would be worth at least $100 to Len. So, lets add the difference to our build price.

$7000 + $500 = $7500

The Ross stroker pistons and Eagle stroker rods will be roughly the same price.

OK, we're now at $7500. So that I won't lose this whole post, I'll stop it now and continue on my next post. :smile22:
 

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Jebus....chevy are soo cheap to build...
 

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OK, we're at $7500.

The biggest item left is the cam set-up. So, we need to figure out the aprox difference in the flat tappet set-up mentioned and a good roller set-up.

Lunati cam $175.

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/lun-10510905

Rhoads Lifters $115.

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/rhl-9518/overview/make/pontiac

Springs $125.

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/rhl-9518/overview/make/pontiac

CC roller tip rockers $150

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/cca-1451-16

Poly locks $30.

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/cca-4606-16/overview/

Pushrods: with that cam, don't think he'd put stock pushrods in it. So, I'll assume a min of $50 for pushrods.

So, unless I forgot something, the flat tappet cam set-up will cost aprox $550.

Now, let's figure a decent hyd roller set-up.

Cam $400.

http://www.sdperformance.com/viewProduct.php?productID=1815

Lifters $400.

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/LUN-72334-16

Springs are about the same price, so let's also put them at $125

Special length pushrods are available for less than $150.

Most would wanna move up to full roller rockers, with a roller cam.

Alum Rockers $250, and these include poly-locks.

http://www.competitionproducts.com/Harland-Sharp-Alum-Roller-Rockers-Pontiac-V8-7_16-165/productinfo/CPXHS6001-65/#.VjJojdKrSt8

Special polymer dist gear $125

This list adds up to $1450, according to my math. So, if this is correct it will add aprox $900 to the price of the flat tappet engine price.

So, $7500 + $900 = $8400 Ya'll check my math.

If I've added all this correctly, $8400 is a long way from $12,000.

Hey, you can add a nice carb and Dougs headers and still be under $10,000, can't you ?

Again, if I'm wrong, somebody point out where I made the mistake. Thanks ! :smile22:
 

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"...chevy are soo cheap to build..."

I'm not so sure that a similar BBC stroker is actually any cheaper. Here's one that has cast pistons and no intake or balancer, for over $7000 shipped. Now this is a 496. But you can build a Pontiac with a 4.5" stroke crank and have about the same cubes. The rotating assembly will be aprox the same price as the 4.25 assembly.

http://www.jegs.com/i/Blueprint-Engines/138/BP4962CT/10002/-1?parentProductId=1617611

Here's one that's a little cheaper, but has iron heads, a cast crank & pistons, and a flat tappet cam.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/BluePrint-496-Big-Block-Chevy-Crate-Engine-/381239336825?hash=item58c3a29f79:g:84oAAOSwrklVPAjo&vxp=mtr

But I'm no Chevy expert. So where is a BBC that is equal to the Pontiac we've been discussing, which can be bought cheaper ?

OR, maybe you were referring to the small block Chevy being cheap. That is definitely true. But those really cheap SBC engines are not even in the same torque league as the Pontiac in question. So, there is no comparison to be made there. :no
 

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"...They are all around 12-13 grand, as I have gotten quotes from all of them for my 69 400. This includes Butler, Kauffman, Spots, Len Williams and Jim Lehart of CVM ..."

We have all read a lot of stuff online, including on Pontiac forums, some of which is just absolutely not true. I, along with many others, have posted things that we later discovered were not true. I hate to give fellow Pontiac lovers bad info. Therefore, in light of that, and defifnitely NOT to start an argument, I'd like to look at this statement a little closer.

Have absolutely no doubts whatsoever that all the above mentioned Big Name Pontiac shops, EXCEPT LEN WILLIAMS, would charge "12-13 grand" for the engine we are discussing. However, I just went back to Len's website, and did some math. I'm not super smart. But I did make an A in most of my basic math courses. And I just absolutely can not get the numbers for one of Len's engines to add up to $12,000.

1st of all, Len doesn't list an engine exactly like we are talking about. So, let's start with the closest thing he has listed. It's a 400 with alum heads, Ross pistons, Eagle rods, Moroso pan, roller tip rockers, an SFI balancer, an RPM intake, and even includes a manual trans flywheel, among other things. Ya'll go down the list to see EXACTLY what all this engine includes for $7200.

NOW, lets add the cost of the parts that would need to be changed, to build an engine like we are discussing. 1st, we can subtract the cost of the difference in a Ram manual flywheel and a new flex plate, since most guys are running an auto trans.

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/ram-1557?seid=srese1&gclid=CjwKEAjwh8exBRDyyqqH9pvf1ncSJAAu4OE3gCEsI7tDhq1apXr-aKg_pbkiEWMFgZgEGVK__JKE4RoCAJvw_wcB

http://www.jegs.com/i/Scat/942/FP-455-SFI/10002/-1?CAWELAID=1854477570&CAGPSPN=pla&catargetid=230006180000849867&cadevice=c&gclid=CjwKEAjwh8exBRDyyqqH9pvf1ncSJAAu4OE3hmFpzv0i9JlkSiWapH4voyAqnQ2kUAfyYTfIVkV7_hoCYszw_wcB

So, let's call it $200 difference. $7200 - $200 = $7000

Now, lets add the cost of a forged crank. Since Spotts retails 'em for $625, let's assume that Len can buy 'em for no more than $600. So, I'll assume that a machined stock 400 crank would be worth at least $100 to Len. So, lets add the difference to our build price.

$7000 + $500 = $7500

The Ross stroker pistons and Eagle stroker rods will be roughly the same price.

OK, we're now at $7500. So that I won't lose this whole post, I'll stop it now and continue on my next post. :smile22:
Of course not an argument and I also hate passing bum scoop out for sure! Of course it is going to be cheaper if you buy all those parts yourself,(they also wont warranty anything you provide) and buy a modified long block, that is a given, but that isnt what I got qoutes for. I got my qoutes for a Complete stroked Engine as stated and that isnt bad scoop at all, that is realistic scoop. All these builders are not passing on to you what they get their parts for, obviously. Yes, you can get prices down if you buy a modified long block (lets not forget that engine at Len's is not Stroked), and provide Hyd roller cam and other items, even I wouldnt dispute that. But once you start adding and changing those items that they list on their basic engine to what I stated above and they provide those parts, you are paying for what they provide and the work/labor they do. Your math adds up perfectly if you are buying and putting those parts in the engine, (once again they wont warranty those items and they arent going to install your parts for free) but it isnt what I got a quote for and not the same HP and complete stroked engine that I recieved a qoute for. I wish I was as knowledgable as you on doing engines, then I would save tons by doing it myself, but as dumb luck would have it, I am not that smart when it comes to doing all that internal engine work. But hey, I did manage to completly strip my Firebird down to metal for the restoration that I am doing, but I dont dare touch the body and paint...dumb there also...lol
 

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For those who have $12,000-$13,000 to plunk down on a Pontiac engine, that's great. For those who don't, Len's 455 with 6x heads and Eagle rods, for $4700, looks good to me. It'll have over 400hp and about 500ft lbs of torque. That'll melt street tires and, with sticky tires & decent gears, will run 12's on the track. That's about what we raced with.

And if you want a little more, I figure Len will sub alum heads for the 6x heads. Now, since anybody can buy alum heads for $2500 or less, I figure Len would not charge more than $3000 extra. That's assuming he considers his ready to run 6x heads worth absolutely nothing, has to pay $2500 for the heads and bolts, and wants to make an extra $500 profit on the heads. Even IF this is true, that still gives you a 455+, with forged rods & pistons, a decent hyd cam with Rhoads lifters, alum heads, new balancer, flexplate, timing cover, pan, etc, for $7700. That's probably at least 450hp+ for $8000 shipped.

Now, if my math and reasoning does not make any sense, so be it. That's all I'll say about it on this thread. I have no argument with anyone who holds different opinions than mine. Peace--Pontiac brother's ! :smile22:
 

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http://www.superchevy.com/how-to/engines-drivetrain/sucp-1006-454-big-block-budget-engine-build/

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/mll-bp4960?seid=srese1&gclid=CJDNr_Py6sgCFRAvaQodi18Brg<< whole Short block if you dont want to assemble

Just rotating assembly

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/sca-1-42370?seid=srese1&gclid=CIuz2LTz6sgCFQIKaQodfIcJ5Q

Source a good FOUR bolt block from junk yard (easy and way cheaper than a 455 block)

have it bored, line honed, and decked

heads

https://www.horsepowerfreaks.com/-p-150888777.html?gclid=CN_GoObz6sgCFQQPaQod4C4A4wso $2500 w/shipping (rough estimate)

So with a junkard block, machine work, stroker kit, oil pump, timing chain, and cam setup, and DART ALUMINUM heads your looking at $7200 for 509cid
 

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Chevys are cheaper with like stuff just the way it is.Put one in a pontiac and it reduces the value the diff IMO.Tom
 

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Agree. However, with that said, if poncho motors were as plentiful as chevy motors(I troll craigslist daily for a P455), the prices on Pontiac stuff would be far more competitive. And I wish the aftermarket world would get on the ball.

Most of the OEM's and builders for pontiac motors know that the owner will at all costs STAY with a Pontiac motor since running anything else in a Pontiac is sacrilegious....which drives the cost of a short/long block way up.

Hell I'd run a olds 425 or buick 455 as well, another stump pulling low end toque monster....however I love a choppy cam, high stall, transbrake launch...just my style, and these motors do not like to be spooled up.

also, IMO for a average street car, very mild 1/4 mile, a P motor will always fare better than a chevy since P motors produce so much more low end torque by design. Hell they run 18 degree heads!!! You have to spend bookoo bux on brodix or dart heads to achieve 18 degree valve angle on a small block chevy then you have to run offset jesel shaft mount rocker $1,500 setup just for rockers, lifters and pushrods! That's another reason the LS motors make so much power for their size is they are 12 or 15 degree...cant remember exactly but they turn the combustion chamber into a tiny heart shaped slice of cheese! Now Im craving nachos....bbL.
 

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I have had 2 455's built by Len. Neither were 12k. Im am going off memory which is dangerous but let's see.

Vat block, rr cam bearings, mag check, Bore and hone with torque plate, deck and square, balanced, assemble short block
$1100
Forged crank, H beam eagle rods, bearings, icon Pistons,
$2100
Comp cam roller cam and lifters bop Dist gear
$1000
Kre 290 ported d ports
$2500
Roll master 9 way timing set, felpro performance gasket set, arp head bolts
$400
Melings oil pump and hardened drive shaft, Harlan Sharp 1.65 full roller rockers, .120 wall push rods, new sfi flex plate and balancer
New tomahawk valley pan, new timing chain cover.
$1100

Total price. $8200
This is with my block and intake
This combo makes 550 h.p. And 600 ft/lb
I'm sure I'm forgetting a few things, but not $4000 worth
 

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I have had 2 455's built by Len. Neither were 12k. Im am going off memory which is dangerous but let's see.

Vat block, rr cam bearings, mag check, Bore and hone with torque plate, deck and square, balanced, assemble short block
$1100
Forged crank, H beam eagle rods, bearings, icon Pistons,
$2100
Comp cam roller cam and lifters bop Dist gear
$1000
Kre 290 ported d ports
$2500
Roll master 9 way timing set, felpro performance gasket set, arp head bolts
$400
Melings oil pump and hardened drive shaft, Harlan Sharp 1.65 full roller rockers, .120 wall push rods, new sfi flex plate and balancer
New tomahawk valley pan, new timing chain cover.
$1100

Total price. $8200
This is with my block and intake
This combo makes 550 h.p. And 600 ft/lb
I'm sure I'm forgetting a few things, but not $4000 worth
I wish I had a 455 block, this would of been the cheaper route for me. Too hard to find or to expensive to find a 455 block around here. Len is for sure the best route if that is what you have and you want what he is offering there. Your closer to Len I think then I am, what did shipping cost you?
 

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Cameron, I'm about 3-1/2 hrs from Len so it cost about $75 in diesel. Your shipping would be approx $300.

If you take his 455 short block, substitute forged crank for $400 your at $3800 compared to my $3200 so he gets $600 for the block.

So add that up and you get a 550 + h.p. 468 for $9100

(still a lot of hard earned money.)
Delivered
Makes the 425 h.p. Iron head long block look pretty good for $4500. And after having that motor in my car the first time it's all you really need to shread some tires and have fun on the street.
 
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