[Capoto]

Hey guys- so pretty new FB owner here (1999 3800) and im pretty young- and about as cheap as they come. I know a decent bit about cars but i know enough to realize i N E E D to ask questions. so as my first big install im gonna install new headers, ive already bought the things and i know i should probably get some new gaskets aswell(?). but what im looking for is really just- how can i install these things whilst removing the least amount of other components as possible to avoid errors- and what tools you recommend for the job. i have access to a jack and stands- but i feel like thats a quick and easy way to put myself 6 feet under. and finally the headers i bought were a set of some pace setters i got from summit. Thanks for any help guys and im happy to be apart of the community

 

[ZumpTA]

I'm not a fan of jack stands either, but the ones that are pinned through the jack stand body are safe in my eyes. ...they're all safe really, but I don't trust any but the one that gets pinned. I'm always worried with the other type that I'll kick the release lever, and that may be irrational, but "better safe than sorry". If it's that big of a thing to you, buy a set of ramps, but that opens up another set of issues if the approach angle is too steep. Solved with (2) 12' 2x10's. Basically, you'll need to make ramps to get onto the ramp. As always, if you're going to jack up the front to work on the car from underneath, remove the front wheels and and place them half under the car behind the front wheel wells while you work. If the worst happens, you'll have a bit of survival space as the car will fall to the wheels instead of your chest. Yeah, it's only 9", so you night have to breathe shallow, but you'll still breathe. I like to place the jack stands under the control arms up front and under the axle in the rear. In my eyes, jacking up the car to place the jack stands underneath is the most dangerous bit.

What you need depends on the condition of the bolts. If they aren't rusted into place, at worst you'll need a breaker bar. If you have an impact gun/wrench, that's a big help. Penetrating fluid is probably mandatory regardless, and you may have to break out a torch and apply heat to the area to get it to break loose. It's a crap shoot. Looking at mine, I can see I'll break a few bolts off. Nearly 30 years in Coastal Florida, and I'm looking at the kind of rust on the exhaust system that you typically see on northern cars. To me, it's not worth the headache unless I knew I was going to benefit.

What are you looking to get out of the engine? As the car sits, it's breathing pretty much as good as it's going to. You'll get more out of a dyno tune than you will a complete (head to tail pipe) exhaust system. If you're looking to come up to Lt1/LS1 power levels, you could buy a Trans Am for less money than it takes to mod the 3800 to that level of power, and even if you came up to equal the horsepower, you'll still be down on torque. Torque wins races, horsepower sells cars. If you just want a little extra, a dyno tune, cat-back, and CAI is the smartest way to go. Your 3800 may even have a factory version of a CAI, it would be a little restricted compared to an aftermarket kit, but it can be modded to flow better. Point is, if you have the factory version of a cold air intake, an aftermarket CAI won't make enough difference to justify it's cost at half the price. There are a few cheap ways (under $500 each) to gain 10-15% more horsepower, but after that, prices get into the thousands for the same gains.

Many buy these v6 cars with dreams of big power not realizing what horsepower actually costs. I like to ask them what they think the amount of money they intend to spend to compete with a v8 would do to a v8. In other words, if it costs you $3,000 to hit 300HP, imagine what $3,000 does to an engine already at 300HP.

There's also resale to consider. Nobody wants a second hand car that's been modified beyond a certain point. Cat-back exhaust, cold air intake, tune, that's OK. But to go beyond that and no matter how professionally done and expensive it was, all a buyer hears is "I heavily abused this car". It's actually worth less to 99% of buyers. Just things to consider.

...and yeah, new manifold gaskets. 100%.

Welcome aboard!

 

[1993TransAm]

👏

 

[Capoto]

I'm not a fan of jack stands either, but the ones that are pinned through the jack stand body are safe in my eyes. ...they're all safe really, but I don't trust any but the one that gets pinned. I'm always worried with the other type that I'll kick the release lever, and that may be irrational, but "better safe than sorry". If it's that big of a thing to you, buy a set of ramps, but that opens up another set of issues if the approach angle is too steep. Solved with (2) 12' 2x10's. Basically, you'll need to make ramps to get onto the ramp. As always, if you're going to jack up the front to work on the car from underneath, remove the front wheels and and place them half under the car behind the front wheel wells while you work. If the worst happens, you'll have a bit of survival space as the car will fall to the wheels instead of your chest. Yeah, it's only 9", so you night have to breathe shallow, but you'll still breathe. I like to place the jack stands under the control arms up front and under the axle in the rear. In my eyes, jacking up the car to place the jack stands underneath is the most dangerous bit.

What you need depends on the condition of the bolts. If they aren't rusted into place, at worst you'll need a breaker bar. If you have an impact gun/wrench, that's a big help. Penetrating fluid is probably mandatory regardless, and you may have to break out a torch and apply heat to the area to get it to break loose. It's a crap shoot. Looking at mine, I can see I'll break a few bolts off. Nearly 30 years in Coastal Florida, and I'm looking at the kind of rust on the exhaust system that you typically see on northern cars. To me, it's not worth the headache unless I knew I was going to benefit.

What are you looking to get out of the engine? As the car sits, it's breathing pretty much as good as it's going to. You'll get more out of a dyno tune than you will a complete (head to tail pipe) exhaust system. If you're looking to come up to Lt1/LS1 power levels, you could buy a Trans Am for less money than it takes to mod the 3800 to that level of power, and even if you came up to equal the horsepower, you'll still be down on torque. Torque wins races, horsepower sells cars. If you just want a little extra, a dyno tune, cat-back, and CAI is the smartest way to go. Your 3800 may even have a factory version of a CAI, it would be a little restricted compared to an aftermarket kit, but it can be modded to flow better. Point is, if you have the factory version of a cold air intake, an aftermarket CAI won't make enough difference to justify it's cost at half the price. There are a few cheap ways (under $500 each) to gain 10-15% more horsepower, but after that, prices get into the thousands for the same gains.

Many buy these v6 cars with dreams of big power not realizing what horsepower actually costs. I like to ask them what they think the amount of money they intend to spend to compete with a v8 would do to a v8. In other words, if it costs you $3,000 to hit 300HP, imagine what $3,000 does to an engine already at 300HP.

There's also resale to consider. Nobody wants a second hand car that's been modified beyond a certain point. Cat-back exhaust, cold air intake, tune, that's OK. But to go beyond that and no matter how professionally done and expensive it was, all a buyer hears is "I heavily abused this car". It's actually worth less to 99% of buyers. Just things to consider.

...and yeah, new manifold gaskets. 100%.

Welcome aboard!

Hey, thanks for the advice man, and my whole goal with all of this is to push a little more HP for relatively cheap. and as much as id want to go with a v8- I'm from the rust belt. I found my firebird in a barn and it has literally the cleanest underbelly of any car I've seen- and while i could go find a v8 version- if it runs- the rusted parts would disintegrate just like any other car over 20 years old from where i live. so if it comes down to a v8 swap- id rather it be on this bird because of how mint of condition its in. but right now my plan is to sorta overhaul the whole car and take the minimal power gains ill get from the overhaul- but more importantly open the door to the big boy upgrades down the line. something that I've been really interested in doing is that m90 supercharger build you see every now and then on the v6 birds. i like a challenge, and if it means doing more difficult work for a unique car- ill take it- also it has the added benefit of usually being cheaper incremental upgrades instead of a big upfront cost.

But i am open to the idea of doing an LS swap- but im slightly deterred from it because of the big upfront cost it always seems to have- but maybe im wrong, do you know how much a whole v8 overhaul would cost?

 

[Capoto]

Hey, thanks for the advice man, and my whole goal with all of this is to push a little more HP for relatively cheap. and as much as id want to go with a v8- I'm from the rust belt. I found my firebird in a barn and it has literally the cleanest underbelly of any car I've seen- and while i could go find a v8 version- if it runs- the rusted parts would disintegrate just like any other car over 20 years old from where i live. so if it comes down to a v8 swap- id rather it be on this bird because of how mint of condition its in. but right now my plan is to sorta overhaul the whole car and take the minimal power gains ill get from the overhaul- but more importantly open the door to the big boy upgrades down the line. something that I've been really interested in doing is that m90 supercharger build you see every now and then on the v6 birds. i like a challenge, and if it means doing more difficult work for a unique car- ill take it- also it has the added benefit of usually being cheaper incremental upgrades instead of a big upfront cost.

But i am open to the idea of doing an LS swap- but im slightly deterred from it because of the big upfront cost it always seems to have- but maybe im wrong, do you know how much a whole v8 overhaul would cost?

I'm not a fan of jack stands either, but the ones that are pinned through the jack stand body are safe in my eyes. ...they're all safe really, but I don't trust any but the one that gets pinned. I'm always worried with the other type that I'll kick the release lever, and that may be irrational, but "better safe than sorry". If it's that big of a thing to you, buy a set of ramps, but that opens up another set of issues if the approach angle is too steep. Solved with (2) 12' 2x10's. Basically, you'll need to make ramps to get onto the ramp. As always, if you're going to jack up the front to work on the car from underneath, remove the front wheels and and place them half under the car behind the front wheel wells while you work. If the worst happens, you'll have a bit of survival space as the car will fall to the wheels instead of your chest. Yeah, it's only 9", so you night have to breathe shallow, but you'll still breathe. I like to place the jack stands under the control arms up front and under the axle in the rear. In my eyes, jacking up the car to place the jack stands underneath is the most dangerous bit.

What you need depends on the condition of the bolts. If they aren't rusted into place, at worst you'll need a breaker bar. If you have an impact gun/wrench, that's a big help. Penetrating fluid is probably mandatory regardless, and you may have to break out a torch and apply heat to the area to get it to break loose. It's a crap shoot. Looking at mine, I can see I'll break a few bolts off. Nearly 30 years in Coastal Florida, and I'm looking at the kind of rust on the exhaust system that you typically see on northern cars. To me, it's not worth the headache unless I knew I was going to benefit.

What are you looking to get out of the engine? As the car sits, it's breathing pretty much as good as it's going to. You'll get more out of a dyno tune than you will a complete (head to tail pipe) exhaust system. If you're looking to come up to Lt1/LS1 power levels, you could buy a Trans Am for less money than it takes to mod the 3800 to that level of power, and even if you came up to equal the horsepower, you'll still be down on torque. Torque wins races, horsepower sells cars. If you just want a little extra, a dyno tune, cat-back, and CAI is the smartest way to go. Your 3800 may even have a factory version of a CAI, it would be a little restricted compared to an aftermarket kit, but it can be modded to flow better. Point is, if you have the factory version of a cold air intake, an aftermarket CAI won't make enough difference to justify it's cost at half the price. There are a few cheap ways (under $500 each) to gain 10-15% more horsepower, but after that, prices get into the thousands for the same gains.

Many buy these v6 cars with dreams of big power not realizing what horsepower actually costs. I like to ask them what they think the amount of money they intend to spend to compete with a v8 would do to a v8. In other words, if it costs you $3,000 to hit 300HP, imagine what $3,000 does to an engine already at 300HP.

There's also resale to consider. Nobody wants a second hand car that's been modified beyond a certain point. Cat-back exhaust, cold air intake, tune, that's OK. But to go beyond that and no matter how professionally done and expensive it was, all a buyer hears is "I heavily abused this car". It's actually worth less to 99% of buyers. Just things to consider.

...and yeah, new manifold gaskets. 100%.

Welcome aboard!

also how much will a good dyno tune cost? my philosophy was to give the intake and exhaust system a little more oompf, maybe new cams, and then have it tuned instead of tuning it twice. Will i need a new ecu for all this? sorry, ive got a T O N of questions and i don't mean to bombard you

 

[ZumpTA]

LS1/LT1 swaps aren't very expensive, and are certainly less costly than properly boosting the 3800. You buy a wrecked Formula/Trans Am for under $2k, swap the parts over, then resale the donor car as scrap. The actual swap is painless if you have everything you need as everything bolts right up. The actual engine swap couldn't be easier. Engines come out through the bottom on these cars. You literally just unbolt the K-Member from the chassis, lift the front end up in the air, and roll it away engine, suspension, steering rack, and all. Swap PCM and engine harness. Depending on the rear end ratio you may have to swap the rear end, again, plug-and-play, and if you have a 5-spd you'll need to swap it for the automatic or 6-spd.

You wouldn't need a new PCM as you would have the v8 PCM. If you didn't have the v8 PCM, I'm not sure on if or if not the v6 PCM can be programmed for the v8. The v8 PCM is good to about 800HP, if you're not going past that and don't need some features available in aftermarket PCMs like programming nitrous or boost, stock PCM is fine. ...there's also stand-alone controllers for those power adding goodies anyway.

Your vehicle has what is called a PCM (Powertrain Control Module) which controls engine and transmission versus the older ECU which only controlled the engine. Bringing that up may seem nit-picking, but it is important to understand that there is a difference and what the difference is. Put the wrong one in your car and you learn the hard way.

v8 swaps aren't for everyone, and there are those who just have to be different regardless of cost and how impractical it is, I just think spending many thousands to play second fiddle is nuts when you could spend less than half the money and get first chair. ...sorry, I'm in music mode today apparently.

A good turbo or supercharger kit is $5k, assuming no other work needs done, (and it does), and you magically double your power, congratulations, you've reached stock LT/LS1 power levels. Me? I'd rather spend the $2k on a donor car, get that v8 power, then put the leftover $3k into the v8 and maybe some chassis upgrades. Donor cars are everywhere, cheap, and contain everything you need. Ultimately though, it's what you want and what you're willing to spend. Just be warned that a v8 swap is the cheapest, easiest, and safest option (safe as in you're not going to blow it up on the dyno or track).

One thing that pops into my mind over forced-induction is your intake. The Achilles Heel of the 3800 is the intake manifold gasket. It is prone to failure naturally aspirated. I don't think boosting the engine would have a positive effect there, but, do some homework, maybe there is a hardened gasket or gasket made of another material that is not as failure prone and could handle a few pounds of boost.

Dyno tunes cost what the shop charges. There's places here that charge $150, there's places here that charge double that, so in my area the answer is $150-300 for a Dyno tune. Your Mileage May Vary.

If you were looking at remanufactured or brand new v8's, yes, a swap is costly. The engine isn't cheap, it won't fit your K-Member, front suspension isn't up to the task, you need the v8 engine harness, the v8 PCM, and more! If you look to a wrecked donor vehicle, it's less than half the cost of boosting, and you're done. Horsepower is expensive, and in this case, it's really cheaper to buy the ponies in bulk and from the same farm.

Start pricing totaled Formulas and Trans Am's, and weigh that against a complete forced induction kit, installation, tuning, and whatever additional are needed such as injectors. DO NOT use eBay or Amazon as a benchmark on price. Nothing good comes from those sites regardless of what you spend. It's all garbage, and those "Universal" kits are the worst place to begin. Nobody but the seller wins here.

 

[Capoto]

LS1/LT1 swaps aren't very expensive, and are certainly less costly than properly boosting the 3800. You buy a wrecked Formula/Trans Am for under $2k, swap the parts over, then resale the donor car as scrap. The actual swap is painless if you have everything you need as everything bolts right up. The actual engine swap couldn't be easier. Engines come out through the bottom on these cars. You literally just unbolt the K-Member from the chassis, lift the front end up in the air, and roll it away engine, suspension, steering rack, and all. Swap PCM and engine harness. Depending on the rear end ratio you may have to swap the rear end, again, plug-and-play, and if you have a 5-spd you'll need to swap it for the automatic or 6-spd.

You wouldn't need a new PCM as you would have the v8 PCM. If you didn't have the v8 PCM, I'm not sure on if or if not the v6 PCM can be programmed for the v8. The v8 PCM is good to about 800HP, if you're not going past that and don't need some features available in aftermarket PCMs like programming nitrous or boost, stock PCM is fine. ...there's also stand-alone controllers for those power adding goodies anyway.

Your vehicle has what is called a PCM (Powertrain Control Module) which controls engine and transmission versus the older ECU which only controlled the engine. Bringing that up may seem nit-picking, but it is important to understand that there is a difference and what the difference is. Put the wrong one in your car and you learn the hard way.

v8 swaps aren't for everyone, and there are those who just have to be different regardless of cost and how impractical it is, I just think spending many thousands to play second fiddle is nuts when you could spend less than half the money and get first chair. ...sorry, I'm in music mode today apparently.

A good turbo or supercharger kit is $5k, assuming no other work needs done, (and it does), and you magically double your power, congratulations, you've reached stock LT/LS1 power levels. Me? I'd rather spend the $2k on a donor car, get that v8 power, then put the leftover $3k into the v8 and maybe some chassis upgrades. Donor cars are everywhere, cheap, and contain everything you need. Ultimately though, it's what you want and what you're willing to spend. Just be warned that a v8 swap is the cheapest, easiest, and safest option (safe as in you're not going to blow it up on the dyno or track).

One thing that pops into my mind over forced-induction is your intake. The Achilles Heel of the 3800 is the intake manifold gasket. It is prone to failure naturally aspirated. I don't think boosting the engine would have a positive effect there, but, do some homework, maybe there is a hardened gasket or gasket made of another material that is not as failure prone and could handle a few pounds of boost.

Dyno tunes cost what the shop charges. There's places here that charge $150, there's places here that charge double that, so in my area the answer is $150-300 for a Dyno tune. Your Mileage May Vary.

If you were looking at remanufactured or brand new v8's, yes, a swap is costly. The engine isn't cheap, it won't fit your K-Member, front suspension isn't up to the task, you need the v8 engine harness, the v8 PCM, and more! If you look to a wrecked donor vehicle, it's less than half the cost of boosting, and you're done. Horsepower is expensive, and in this case, it's really cheaper to buy the ponies in bulk and from the same farm.

Start pricing totaled Formulas and Trans Am's, and weigh that against a complete forced induction kit, installation, tuning, and whatever additional are needed such as injectors. DO NOT use eBay or Amazon as a benchmark on price. Nothing good comes from those sites regardless of what you spend. It's all garbage, and those "Universal" kits are the worst place to begin. Nobody but the seller wins here.

is there anywhere online i should look for totaled TA’s or should i just hop around junkyards and see what i can find. Firebirds are a rarity where i am- everyone drives AWD or 4WD and ive only ever seen 1 other one in the wild, so im not too sure how common theyll be in yards and whatnot- but if theres a way to look around online itll save alot of time