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']['exXxas']['itan
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The general consensus is NO. Its frowned upon in the pontiac community but to each his own. I will have a BBC in my 68.
 

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just hurts the resale if it a desirable car.Tom

Sell it to a pontiac lover and get a Camaro IMO.Tom
 

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I have had two cars with a BBC ('69 SS 396 Chevelle, '70 SS 396 Camaro), and a '95 T/A with a small block Chevy. I like Chevy engines just fine.....but I would not put a Chevy engine in a car that came with a Pontiac engine from the factory.

I didn't like it when GM started doing the "corporate" engine thing. I suppose it is a bit overkill for GM to make a 455 Pontiac, 455 Buick, 455 Olds, and a 454 Chevy, so from a cost save perspective I get it. Still, as much as I like BBC's, and I made the two I had run pretty strong, and they sounded great, I would never put a BBC in a Pontiac, any more that I would put a 455 Pontiac in a Camaro, but if someone else wants to do it, that is their decision.
 

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Putting the Chevy in it will hurt the value as well as get you some flack at some car shows. But if you don't care about those things, the 327 is a good motor to have.
 

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']['exXxas']['itan
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If my bird was a daily, or weekend cruiser, I'd go with a 400 or 455 stroked. However, mine will be a street legal bracket car...so $$$ per CI, the BBC is more economical choice for me.
 

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If my bird was a daily, or weekend cruiser, I'd go with a 400 or 455 stroked. However, mine will be a street legal bracket car...so $$$ per CI, the BBC is more economical choice for me.
Having built, raced and won, with several Pontiac powered bracket cars, including 1st gen Birds, I feel I am qualified to comment here. :yes

My 1st experience with a 1st gen was with a '68, which we ran in E/SA, before our local tracks ever started running ET brackets. With a 330hp 400, TJ(my wife) won the 1st six races she entered, and won the biggest race of the year, at our local track, which they called the LA State Championship Race. At the end of that season, I put a 4-speed Muncie in the car and TJ used it for her daily driver for nearly 3 years. So, besides being a race winner, that 400 Pontiac engine made a great street engine as well.

My 1st 455 came out of a '70 GTO. I think it had over 70,000 street miles. Had never been out of the car. I put it into a '68 Bird. It ran 12.40's with a stock 13" converter and 3.55 gears. Later in the year, I pulled that engine and put it into my '69 GTO. Won the 1st race entered, with it. I later pulled it out of the Goat and put it into another '68 Bird. It ran mid 12's in that car also, and won several races. Was still running good when I gave the car to the guy that was driving it for me. I figured it up in my head, and I'm sure this engine had well over 500 passes down the 1/4 mile drag strips we raced. And the heads never came off of it. All I'd done to it was add a RA4 grind cam, Rhoads lifters, and a stock type timing set. Won lots of $$ with that engine, and it was given to me. AND, MOST of the cars that we beat with that engine were CHEVY powered Camaros, Novas, and Chevelles, which cost a LOT more to build than any of my Pontiacs.

So, what is my point ? A Pontiac engine can be a good street/strip engine, without spending a fortune on it. These 400 and 455 engines I mentioned had cast pistons & rods, HFT cams, iron heads & intakes, and 750cfm Q-jet carbs. And if you wanna go a little quicker, some forged pistons, and a little more gear will put you easily into the 11's. TJ ran 11.82 with her last 1st gen, a '67.

So, if you happen to be a Chevy guy, and just like BBC Chevy engines better than Pontiac, either because of price or whatever, then I personally think you should find a Chevy body to put your Chevy engine into. OR, go with a 3rd or 4th gen Bird, which came with Chevy engines. No 1st or 2nd gen Bird ever came with a BBC engine. They did come with Chevy straight six engines, and some of the late 2nd gens came with sbc engines.

Yes, I know that many, if not most, do not agree with my opinion on this subject. They say it's OK to put any engine you choose into any body you choose, since it's your money. But, you guys who feel this way, will just have to understand that there are a few(very few) of us old codgers still around, who were here back in the days when Pontiacs and Chevies were opponents, both on the streets, strips, and circle tracks. Back then it was almost a sin to put a Chevy engine into a Bird or Goat. To me it still is. I remember just a few years ago, I went to our local track and saw a nice lookin 2nd gen. So, I went over to get a closer look, and maybe talk to the guy. But, when I saw a BBC under the hood, I just turned and walked away. I had absolutely no interest in any of the details of his BBC engine. :no It was just a clone of many of the other engines in the pits that day. :(

By the way Derrick, I see by the info on your posts that you are a beer drinker. Although I haven't had a drink of any kind of alcohol for a LONG time, there was a time when I raced Pontiacs and drank LOTS of beer. I'm not proud of it, but it happened. I never drank while racing. But, as soon as I lost, or the race was over, the drinkin was on. So, you can work on and race with Pontiac power, as well as Chevy, and still drink beer. :lol:

And, by the way ya'll, I have absolutely no problem with anybody who has a different opinion than mine. I'll never even see most of ya'll, and as many say, it's your car and your money. Build it any way you want it. But, if you wanna brag about it on a Pontiac site, you'll just have to understand that there are still a few of us old Pontiac Freaks around, who will never think it's OK to put a Chevy engine into a 1st or 2nd gen Bird or Goat that came with a Pontiac engine. That's just the way we are. And in my case, my opinion was shaped, in part, buy the arrogant attitude of many(not all) of the Chevy guys we encountered, while racing our Pontiac powered cars. :(
 

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']['exXxas']['itan
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For originality and resale, keep a poncho power plant. I do agree with that. Now with that said, everyone has a different goal with their car.

If being a cruiser with light strip duty, and of course the every "blue moon" street fight, then it wouldn't make any sense to go with a chevy motor in a pontiac since poncho motors in near stock form will just about smash a SBC in every aspect due to design enhancements. Plus the cool factor of running a motor thats not so common. Now poncho vs 454 chevy is just about fair in stock form IMO.

Now for a bracket car with only a 1-2 sat evening cruse <50miles, that runs <11.20ET, a poncho will be quite a bit more expensive due to the aftermarket part availability. Not saying you cant do it, but when $$$ are paramount.... Supply/Demand....hence chevy parts being so much cheaper. And thats based on NON GM part castings. To find a set of 990's or 049's that havent been mutilated by some asshat that got bored with a die grinder is quite a feat anymore (stock go fast parts). Also, RPMs are paramount here. Most really fast (sub 11sec) bracket cars twist quite a bit of RPM on a loose converter to get the 60' times down <1.5s. Twisting a 455 stroked out to 6800rpm or possibly beyond would require some very expensive internals. However, a rotating assembly for say a 454 with long rods (nearly in the oil land), JE/ROSS/Wiseco pistons, and nodular iron crank is considerably cheaper and can twist to 7000rpm if assembled properly.

Also as soon as someone sees the BBC valve cover pattern in a pontiac, it goes south from there. However, if you build a dart M block, with brodix heads, eagle crank and rods, JE pistons.....is it even a chevy any more? hell none of it was even dreamt up by GM or the "corporate" groups. I seen an add on CL the other day for PONTIAC PRO STOCK heads....they looked exactly like BBC heads! However they had a special intake pattern and were 18 degree. Now these are true drag only heads but they had the pontiac emblem cnc'd in the ends of them and had the BBC head bolt pattern!

Would you put a honda engine in your harley? No

Would you put a CBR 900 motor in your john deere riding lawn mower? Absolutely if you want go mow at record speeds!

All comes down to purpose + $$ IMO.

Now if someone wants to go steal Justins motor outta the totaled crow and ship it to me....i'll be glad to sport those butler valve covers lol!
 

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"... Not saying you cant do it, but when $$$ are paramount.... Supply/Demand....hence chevy parts being so much cheaper..."

I'd say, from your statement, quoted above, that your MAIN reason, if not your ONLY reason for wanting a BBC, is price. The "purpose" part, which is quoted below, is not even a part of your decision, since there are probably hundreds of 10 and low 11 sec Pontiac street/strip engine builds, described online. And the Pontiac engines are quite a bit lighter than an iron head BBC. So, price is the ONLY advantage I can see. :yes

"...All comes down to purpose + $$ IMO..."

But, I can definitely understand the price part. I have a 455 powered bracket car, that I did not have the $$ to race, this season. :(

I just thought of this. Many tracks require approved roll bars, for any car running 11.50 or quicker. Do you already have 'em or have plans for some ? Cliff Ruggles has a Pontiac powered street/strip Ventura that will run low 11's. But he short shifts and / or detunes things a bit, to slow it down, so he won't have to install roll bars.
 

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&#39;][&#39;exXxas&#39;][&#39;itan
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My 68 will have a 8pt cage in it long before it ever hits Academy drag way.

1. because this car has quite a bit of flex in it and the rear pillars were already torn and I had to weld them.

2. Safety of course.

3. Because anyone that pulls up next to me at a light will know Im serious about going fast instead of just slapping a single fogger on an LS motor and calling it a day.

I got a quote from a fab shop locally that quoted $4,500 installed for a 10pt custom cage built for my seating arrangement in the car. However, that's out of my budget currently so I'll have to get a pre fab kit thats IHRA legal and weld it in myself then have it tech stamped at the track during an IHRA event.

Yes, BBC heads are stupid heavy as well. I don't know the exact weight of them, but I'd have to guess at least 20lbs more than a poncho head. Now with that said, aluminum heads can be had for a decent price later down the road second hand and most racers that buy a near top of the line set of BBC heads (Brodix/Dart Pro 1/Merlin) generally take care of them unless they don't completely destroy them on a lean run. I mean I wont turn down a virgin set of 990's for couple hundred bucks either though (rectangular port).

Main reason is price, secondary reason is availability, third reason is I can pick up second had parts for next to nothing pretty much anywhere. Since essentially my car is the same as a 68 craparo, the mounts/headers/go fast parts, are all interchangable. I just dont like the front end of the craparos.....just my .02c

Now all BS aside, if this was a pro touring car, then I'd have to say a stroked 400P motor with an aftermarket fuel injection kit would be where I pointed my wallet to.
 

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"...Main reason is price, secondary reason is availability, third reason is I can pick up second had parts for next to nothing pretty much anywhere..."

All this is just another way of saying you're going BBC because they're cheaper. WE GET IT ! :yes

"...secondary reason is availability..."

This part of the statement is NOT a legitimate reason for going BBC. :no

Why ? Because there are plenty of Pontiac blocks and iron heads available, if you really wanted to run Pontiac. You may have to pay shipping, either for a core block or a crate engine or shortblock. But, as of today, there are still plenty of Pontiac parts left.

And, nowadays, there are aftermarket alum heads, and other aftermarket parts available so that you can build a "Pontiac" engine without using a single GM part. So, you see, lack of "availability" is not a reason to avoid Pontiac engines. For 10-12 sec street/strip engines, price is the only disadvantage I can see, for running a Pontiac engine.

And, much of that price difference is offset by an increase in the market value of the car, with Pontiac power. Most Chevy guys will not even want your engine, unless you practically give it to 'em. This is because of the very reasons you mentioned. Most Chevy guys either already have plenty of Chevy parts, or know where they can get plenty of 'em either for free or dirt cheap. So, most would only want the body, to put their motor in. :yes
 

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I know VERY little about BBC Chevy engines. So, I decided to look up some aftermarket BBC parts, for comparison.

I know that Dart is a big name in aftermarket Chevy parts, so I looked up a Dart BBC block. This one sells for about $2300, from Summit and Jegs. May be a cheaper source--don't know.

http://www.dartheads.com/products/catalogsearch/result/?q=31243244

A Pontiac aftermarket block is about $3000. So, the Pontiac is about $700 higher.

http://www.spottsperformance.com/blocks.htm

A 505 Pontiac shortblock is about $6200.

This BBC engine builder sells shortblocks, using the Dart block, for about $7000, with cam and forged crank.

http://www.steveschmidtracing.com/short-blocks/big-block-chevy/585-and-598-combinations

So, add a forged crank and roller cam to the Pontiac price, and they about equal. Are there Chevy engine builders who will build a BBC shortblock, with a Dart block, and equal parts, cheaper ? As said, I'm not a Chevy guy, so I don't know the cheapest engine builders. Please post links, in case others who read this would like to buy a Dart BBC shortblock, for the cheapest price.

I assume that Brodix is one of the biggest names in BBC heads ? I looked some up at Summit. The cheapest one I see is about the same price as an alum Pontiac head, at over $1000 each. And they go up in price from there. But I assume there are a lot of no name BBC heads which are cheaper.

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/bro-2021012/overview/make/chevrolet

Dart heads look to be a little higher than the Brodix.

http://www.jegs.com/i/Dart/301/19000111/10002/-1?CAWELAID=1710647556&CAGPSPN=pla&catargetid=230006180003464197&cadevice=c&gclid=Cj0KEQiAnJqzBRCW0rGWnKnckOIBEiQA6qDBauQT_q2S598HB7J2vKFq5MixvQiuHVxuS6bHLgl8zR4aAjzG8P8HAQ

Doing a little more searching, I found some cheaper BBC heads for just under $1500. Don't know anything about the quality or performance, as compared to the Dart and Brodix.

The cheapest popular Pontiac heads, that I am aware of, are the KRE D-ports, at just over $2000 per set. So, I'll assume that the Pontiac heads will cost aprox $500 more than the cheapest alum BBC heads.

http://www.krepower.com/Pontiac%20Aluminum%20D-port%20Cylinder%20Heads.htm

So, some of you Chevy guys help me figure out the difference in cost of an aftermarket BBC engine, vs an aftermarket Pontiac engine.

I figure that if you buy the shortblock and assemble the the rest yourself, you can build a 600+hp 505-540 cube Pontiac for $10,000 or real close to it.

So, ya'll please post links to BBC prices, for comparison(new aftermarket--not used or GM). Hey, it'll be fun and may help someone who reads this thread. :yes

The best new GM deal I see is this 502 for about $7500. Don't know if the Brodix and Dart parts are better quality or not ? How much would this engine sell for, in a good used condition ?

http://www.jegs.com/i/GM+Performance/809/12496963/10002/-1?CAWELAID=1710550787&CAGPSPN=pla&catargetid=230006180003463508&cadevice=c&gclid=Cj0KEQiAnJqzBRCW0rGWnKnckOIBEiQA6qDBaoZX3YgATDpiHElm5lRJxdPQY8jy5WH315-oKJ6e4SsaAnKM8P8HAQ

Hey, after this, I'm done. That's all the BBC info I'm gonna look up.

http://www.chevydiy.com/ultimate-guide-building-chevy-big-blocks-cylinder-blocks-instruction/
 

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Ramblin' Wreck
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Put in any engine you like. Swaps have be going on for as long as cars have existed. I put a Chrysler Hemi into a 54 Ford when I was 18. Nothing bad about Ford, but I liked the power of the Hemi better.
 

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If your very serious about getting down the track fast, the LS motor is tough to beat when it comes to power and weight ratio.
 

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&#39;][&#39;exXxas&#39;][&#39;itan
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Dan your right about that, would be a turbo/blower car for sure. If I go LS later, it will be when all these hipsters quit salivating over the LS swaps and let the price return to a realistic level lol.

Don Im not going to buy all brand new parts and Im not going to have someone assemble it for me. Ive built 100+ engines and many of them were drag motors. They all lasted and ran hard as hell except the last motor I built that was a throw together of motley crue of batch parts. .450" dome on a stock rod with 72cc chamber? yeah it was a recipe for destruction but ran well for 1 season.

Any motor, and I dont care if its a ford, poncho, chevy....hell a high end honda or subaru motor for that matter, thats built by a specialized "builder" will always cost an arm and a leg and not be to far from one another given a hp/trq vs CID level.

In the drag world, guys are always upgrading to more expensive parts, and a lot of them have sponsors. So when the newest dart pro 1 head comes out, and they want to run it, then they sell their tried and true 2yr old set of brodix, or dart heads for about half price to offset the cost of the new ones. Thats where I come in. I mean who wouldnt want to score a set of used RA heads that were mint for $1500?.....oh wait no one would ever want to sell those!

A lot of parts would always be new items...cams...rockers.....timing gear/belts...but the main core of the motor like block/heads/crank would all be considered "used" anyways unless I did buy a brand new setup and yes, it would cost about $1-2k more to buy an aftermarket P block, forged crank, and aluminum set of DCI heads (equivalent to Dart/Brodix). http://www.dcimotorsports.com/

I am at work, and cannot digress into the ball park cost of building a BBC to go fast right now. I do know a quick "BBC BUDGET BUILT" search on google turns up many pages of 600+hp/trq motors for less than $7-8k and thats with new aluminum heads and the like.
 
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