[Capoto]

Hey guys so, heres the game plan
im swapping my 3800 v6 (1999) with an auto for a 6.0 paired upto a fabbot ar5.
I think ive got a decent grasp of the job but im looking for any input

(Also let me preface it all with this, i am sourcing alot of my parts through Pull-A-Part who has standard pricing for all of their stuff so i can pull off things like getting a 6.0 for 200$, i would do a ls1 swap but there is literally one ls1 fbody in all of the surrounding states through Pull-A-Part, its a 8 hour drive and im not even sure if it still has the engine)

Regardless

Heres what i think ill need;
-Im fairly certain ill basically need to swap all 6.0 accessories for ls1 accessories- which truck accessories can i keep? if any. Any recommended ways of sourcing said parts because like i said finding a ls1 at a junkyard is damn near impossible where im from

-I know ill need a fbody oil pan- Can i use a cts-v/corvette pan? would it be cheaper? or should i look for an aftermarket pan? im working with a pretty thin budget, but i can stretch it out over time if i push past my initial idea

-Radiator- Can i use the truck radiator for this job? Maybe even the v6? i doubt it but then again if someones done it with the v6 radiator and it works then thats money saved and can be put into performance parts

-Im nearly certain i have to use the ls1/ls6 style intake- The price for said intake tends to vary from 200-500$, but if theres an aftermarket intake that will fit im willing to spend a decent price on it, but ideally no more than 6-800$

-Throttle body- I remember reading something about someone using a northstar v8 throttlebody, is there a fairly prolific throttlebody i can snag up that would make more sense than a ls1/truck TB? Also i think id need to change the pedals out if i went with drive by wire, is there a electronic one that may be compatible

-Mounts- i plan to use the v6 kmember with aftermarket mounts, hooker sells a kit for like 270$, but the kmember is also around that price if i find a good deal, should i air on the side of just going with buying the kmember? correct me if im wrong but id need to buy mounts anyways if i use the ls1 kmember.

-Harness- Im fairly certain you can reuse the v6 harness, Kid kevi has a video on how to rewire it on youtube, but i could probably get the truck harness for pretty cheap so i imagine itd be easier to just go with that correct?

-ECU- Ok so this is my problem child right here. I think you can use the truck harness with the ls1 ecu, would that just be a matter of having the ecu flashed to cooperate with the 6.0? Is there any aftermarket solutions that arent over 600$

-AR5 crossmember- Can i reuse the v6 crossmember? could i use the one that came with the tranny? should i use a t56 one?

-AR5 Fitment- so i know i have some options with how i want the shifter to sit with the solstice, slingshot, and colorado, does anyone have any experience/knowledge on which one has the best shot of a decent fit?

-Driveshaft- I dont suppose theres one i can snag up from the junkyard that will fit right? imean id have to imagine its gonna be similar to the ar5 fitment where the only real way to find out is to just stick it in there and see what fits

OK
now that we got that big ole list of questions out there and on paper, lets see what you guys have to say!
Im sure i mighta missed some things, but thats what im putting this out and on here for right? to see what you guys know and correct things i may have missed.

 

[Injuneer]

Which 6.0 LS-series engine are you considering? There are at least 16 different versions, used in trucks, vans, Corvettes, GTO, CTS-V, etc. etc. etc.

Is it an aluminum block like the LS1 engines used in the Firebird, or a heavy cast iron block, used primarily in the trucks? If it's CI, why add all that extra weight to the front of your car? Definitely need heavier than LS1 stock springs.

Why not just use a T56? What is your perceived advantage for using the Aisin AR5? The fastest F-Body on the planet is a manually shifted T56 running 6.97 @ 200+ MPH.

While you may live in some isolated area that a complete F-Body (Camaro/Firebird) 1998-2002 engine/trans would not be available in a salvage yard, you can buy an engine online from virtually anywhere. No trans adapters, no wiring harness issues, no interface issues to the body harness, no PCM issues, no driveshaft issues, no K-member issues, noo accsory mounting issues, no radiator issues, ..... the list goes on and on. A huge number of costly issues all caused by the desire to save money on the engine and transmission.

If you're serious about this, you need to find a site where someone has actually done a similar swap. I can't think of anyone here who has done it. I doubt most people here have even heard of the Aisin AR5.

 

[ZumpTA]

I doubt most people here have even heard of the Aisin AR5.

I hadn't until now. After looking at the AR5 specs, it's a hard pass. The gear ratios are 3.75/2.26/1.37/1/0.73 for the Colorado, and the Solstice variant has a 1.51 3rd gear.

Built for 260HP and claimed they can hold "up to 600HP" if you're not abusive. So, stay off the track, don't drive "spirited", and stay away from sticky UHP tires and slicks.

To be honest the gear ratios of that 5 speed aren't a good fit for a high-torque application. 1st is 3.75

I have a 3.36 1st with a 3.23 rear-end and it's almost retarded. It's equal to (within 0.1 revolutions) a 94+ 6-spd with a 4.11 rear-end. I also have a 0.63 6th and when cruising above 55MPH, I'm always reaching for 7th. Could have really benefitted from a 0.50 6th in this car, so, backwards with the 0.73 the over-drive there too compared to "factory" offerings.

1st is too low, 5th isn't high enough, and 3rd is the weak link according to many. Seems 3rd is destroyed at the track frequently.

Seriously, you don't know how stupid a 3.75 first gear will be until you get behind it. It's cool on one hand, but it's completely pointless and obscene on the other. Maybe if the 2.73 rear is kept that will tame 1st some and make the overdrive ratio more bearable, but, there's nothing performance about a 2.73 axle either. One-wheel-peels for days, whoopie!

The AR5 has the same 3rd gear ratio as mine. I have to use 3rd to start in the wet. 1st will roast the wheels and instantly slide sideways from idle no matter how much I slip the clutch. Useless. 2nd gear (2.07) starts from idle, no wheel-spin as long as I don't touch the gas pedal. When the clutch comes out in 2nd, it's still too easy to induce wheel-spin, so I shift immediately into 3rd pretty much right there. Finally started just using 3rd in the wet. Surprisingly, the clutch doesn't need to slip as much as you'd think when starting in 3rd. ...and I still leave traffic behind most of the time. 4th Gen 6-spd Trans Am's are stupid in the wet, and you want more power. It takes an expensive UHP tire to have any confidence in the wet below 3rd, and even then, 3rd can induce wheel-spin with little effort from 30 to 55MPH. I use 3rd from the line and up to 30/35 then go right to 5th or 6th when I'm in the wet.

...the thing is, can that AR5 hold up to all the weight and torque placed on it by a Gen 3+ small block leaving the line in 3rd? I'd be concerned about that. Doesn't sound like a strong transmission compared to it's American counterparts. The AR5 transmission is used mostly in lightweight sports cars and Light Utility Vehicles. The Buick 3.8L is right at it's rated performance limits in stock form, and you want to put double the power behind it? Good luck with that! It may not explode the first time the clutch comes out, but it will most certainly need serviced to a higher degree and much more frequently than any of the other options built specifically for the horsepower and torque ratings you're looking at.

No good reason to use this transmission even if 1st and 5th didn't suck. ...and 3rd wasn't a failure point.

M28, M29, M6/T56, TKO, all better choices, and none of them sacrifice 3rd gear when drag racing. ...even the A4 (4l60/e) is a better fit for the vehicle and power levels you're looking at. Me? 6-spd or Super-T10.

Fact is, how easy this is is directly related to how close you stick to the platform. The farther you move from it, the more complicated and expensive it becomes. Like that AR5 transmission. I don't care how cheap it is, it's going to be a problem one way and/or another. I'd rather get something that's rated for and proven at the power levels you're looking at, not something "capable as long as you baby it". Get the F-Body transmission, and it bolts up and the shifter falls where it should. No worries. Pretty much the same for everything else. There's so much room for "gotchas" that smart money is on a Trans Am/Formula donor vehicle.

 

[Capoto]

Which 6.0 LS-series engine are you considering? There are at least 16 different versions, used in trucks, vans, Corvettes, GTO, CTS-V, etc. etc. etc.

Is it an aluminum block like the LS1 engines used in the Firebird, or a heavy cast iron block, used primarily in the trucks? If it's CI, why add all that extra weight to the front of your car? Definitely need heavier than LS1 stock springs.

Why not just use a T56? What is your perceived advantage for using the Aisin AR5? The fastest F-Body on the planet is a manually shifted T56 running 6.97 @ 200+ MPH.

While you may live in some isolated area that a complete F-Body (Camaro/Firebird) 1998-2002 engine/trans would not be available in a salvage yard, you can buy an engine online from virtually anywhere. No trans adapters, no wiring harness issues, no interface issues to the body harness, no PCM issues, no driveshaft issues, no K-member issues, noo accsory mounting issues, no radiator issues, ..... the list goes on and on. A huge number of costly issues all caused by the desire to save money on the engine and transmission.

If you're serious about this, you need to find a site where someone has actually done a similar swap. I can't think of anyone here who has done it. I doubt most people here have even heard of the Aisin AR5.

-So, the attraction to my picks in parts is both the LQ9 and ar5 being incredibly available.

-The LQ9 would be my 6.0 of choice because I've checked the registry of all of the Pull-A-Part junkyards near by and in neighboring states within basically a 12 hour drive radius and there is one ls1 Camaro at about a 9 hour drive that has been on the yard for nearly 2 weeks so no promises it has the engine. And there is a lt1 firebird that is actually fairly close- Would you recommend the lt1 over the LQ9?

To my knowledge its aftermarket for the lt1 isnt nearly as strong as the LQ9. I had also thought about going with the 5.3 and the 5.7 vortec. both are incredibly common around me but heres the thing. With the yards pricing scheme theyre all the same price. Hypothetically i could buy a brand new c8 corvettes engine for the exact same price as the common 5.3, but your issue will be getting to it before everyone else and finding it to begin with.

I am aware that id need to address the suspension. But with the power per dollar, I'm willing to take that job on. But say i did get the ls1 online- id be looking at maybe 4000$. 4000$ for the engine with the full accessory bracket, and wiring. Now i think that a LQ9 being only 200$+/- will offset the price of the accessories, and wiring correct? Even if i bought all the accessories, brackets, intake manifold etc. brand new i cant imagine it'd be more than 3800$ total to make it worth just going with a ls1.

And while i could buy a stripped down ls1 off of facebook marketplace with high mileage and no accessories/intake manifold/harness/oil pan for 1800-2k, id still be in the same shoes as i would be with a lq9 where i have to go online and source all of those parts, and probably end up paying more. Id say with that in consideration it brings us back to the point you made of wiring and PCM.

Which i full agree with and i feel as though while the accessories can be done in a way that would make sense- my problem child; the PCM- may be what sets me over. See, there is a thread where a guy managed to pull off a 5.3 and 4L60E transmission for 3000$, and he used a aftermarket harness for the 5.3 and i beleive he used a ls1 PCM that was flashed to handle the 5.3. Which if you apply the same logic to the 6.0, would make it possible to dodge getting a standalone ECU. On top of that there may even be a way to make your own harness out of the one that comes with the 6.0, while I'm not sure how much i like the idea- i may experiment with it (since the harness would only be something like 20$ at the junkyard) and see if i can pull it off (for 20$ you might as well right?) and if it doesn't work I'm more or less ok with buying a nice, loomed harness made for the job for 500$.

-Here's that 5.3 swap i was referencing ;
2000 firebird 5.3 swap, lots of pics and info!! - LS1TECH - Camaro and Firebird Forum Discussion

-20$ harness wiring i was referencing;

-And the 500$ harness i was referencing ;

Gen III (24x) DBC Harness LS & Vortec 4.8 5.3 6.0 6.2

GEN III DBC HARNESS SELECTOR, Select the options below to build your harness. Use the pictures if you are not sure of what you have. APPLICATION: 1997 -

www.psiconversion.com

-And the attraction to the AR5 is the same deal. Hypothetically if i could find a t56 it would be the exact same price at this yard as the AR5. A transmission at this yard is roughly 115$. Are there stronger more common transmission options out there? i had briefly considered the t5 but the AR5 seems to be generally stronger (correct me if im wrong). Another option would be the 4l60/80e. Which i know would be probably the smartest option- but thats where im willing to be a little dumb just to have some fun. Id prefer a manual if possible. But the AR5 has one more trick up its sleeve. the main cost barrier to it will be the adapter(s), and in the case the transmission were to fail it would literally be a matter of “Ok yup, go back to the yard” i could most likely find a new one on my first try at the yard closest to me, and have a fresh transmission for 115$, and already have the adapter, different driveshaft ect which is the main initial cost to the AR5, where as in the case of the t56, if it were to fail, most likely i wouldnt find it at the yard, and be stuck paying 2k for a new one. I like to think of it like this. With the main cost being the strongest, and least likely parts to break(adapter plate, driveshaft, slave cylinder(?)<- not sure if i have to change the slave cylinder for the adaptation), and the weak point being the transmission itself which would also be the same for the t56 (admittedly over a different lifespan, becuase it is inherently stronger than the AR5), i see the AR5 as a 800-1500$ manual with a “warranty” being that if it breaks its only 115$ to fix, versus the t56 which is 2000-2500$ which if it breaks i have to pay that full 2000-2500$

-And here is the AR5 being paired upto a LQ4;

-And another just general AR5 video;

 

[Injuneer]

OK…. If you can actually get a complete, running LQ9 for $200, good luck.

Appears you've already made up your mind on the path forward, and there's nothing more I can say beyond what I’ve already posted. In the 28 years I owned a 4th Gen, hung out with performance oriented 4th Gen owners from all over the mid-Atlantic states, raced in NJ, PA, and DE, and moderated multiple 4th Gen bulletin boards, I have never seen anyone use (or even talk about) the Aisin AR5.

In any case, I also don’t think anyone here has done anything even close to what your are looking at. Maybe one of the newbies has experience with it. You would probably find more people with some of the required knowledge on a site like ls1tech.com . Given your resistance to input, I'm not even sure why you asked.

 

[Capoto]

I got the engine- complete with wiring harness, accessories, intake, ect. Ended up paying more like 275$ with tax and rented a uhaul to haul it back home but the first hurdle is over. The truck i pulled it from was totaled due to a rear end collision and in combination with rust it just shot the frame. Engine was fine though. And after taking it apart everything is in really good shape internally.

But that aside- Im mostly just going for the AR5 because i can do it on a paper thin budget. Frankly thats the only reason why. If it works, and will run and drive- thats what matters most to me. im not shooting for a drag racer here. im simply going for a decently powerful v8, paired with a manual transmission on a paper thin budget. If you have any other recommendations for transmissions im all ears, but i just simply cannot afford to get a 2000$ T56- i understand thats the easiest, and most sensible way to do it- id end up waiting for roughly 4 months to save 2000$ with my current pay.

But I digress

Now im just looking for some info on the PCM. Ive heard you can run the 6.0 on the ls1 PCM if you tune it- but im also wondering if you could use the original PCM from the truck. I plan to garage my firebird for the winter in this upcoming weekend so ill be able to just see for myself pretty soon here but i figured id just ask.

Thank you for your time and patience- i went MIA there for a bit but things have been busy lately so i apologize.

Ill keep you guys updated

 

[Capoto]

OK…. If you can actually get a complete, running LQ9 for $200, good luck.

Appears you've already made up your mind on the path forward, and there's nothing more I can say beyond what I’ve already posted. In the 28 years I owned a 4th Gen, hung out with performance oriented 4th Gen owners from all over the mid-Atlantic states, raced in NJ, PA, and DE, and moderated multiple 4th Gen bulletin boards, I have never seen anyone use (or even talk about) the Aisin AR5.

In any case, I also don’t think anyone here has done anything even close to what your are looking at. Maybe one of the newbies has experience with it. You would probably find more people with some of the required knowledge on a site like ls1tech.com . Given your resistance to input, I'm not even sure why you asked.

To be frank- im stubborn as hell. thats just something ive accepted about myself. Im determined at this point to figure out a way to make this work- and hopefully some day i can reply in this thread with a video of it running. I appreciate you being patient with me, im just going to tackle it one step at a time. I may deviate from the AR5 im just not sure how as i currently stand. But one thing i can tell you for certain is it wont be with a t56. Transmission aside i do have have questions that any input on would be greatly appreciated. I just dropped one on the wiring in a separate reply. Thank you again for again for still even looking my way- im sure theres gonna be a point that im just being too much of a hardhead where i just need to go out and prove it first- ive tackled that with the engine already, maybe i can do it with the transmission too- i guess well see. But wiring is something that im not too sure i can just “go out and do it” with. Any info is appreciated. Thanks

 

[Capoto]

 

[Injuneer]

If you take such pride in being "hardheaded" and "stubborn as hell", why did you include "(correct me if im wrong) in the topic. Basically, two of us wasted our time trying to respond to that specific request.

 

[Capoto]

If you take such pride in being "hardheaded" and "stubborn as hell", why did you include "(correct me if im wrong) in the topic. Basically, two of us wasted our time trying to respond to that specific request.

I dont take pride in it, its something im aware of and live with. And i took to note what you guys said- but you didn’t acknowledge what i said. I said i wasnt looking to get a t56, im looking at other options and the AR5 is just one of them- ZumpTA was actually really helpful and gave me the mechanical breakdown on why an AR5 wouldnt be a good fit which i really appreciated, but to be honest all that youve done is just try to convince me that i need a t56- saying its the fastest- the strongest- the easiest ect when ive stated repeatedly that isnt gonna work- not because its a bad transmission, its frankly just out of my price range. I said correct me if im wrong, and applied that to a plethora of different topics- Wiring, PCM, Intake manifold, Accessory drive, oil pan, and transmission- and i gave my intended course of action for each of them with the intent of receiving constructive feedback based on fitment and compatibility, and youve honed in on the transmission being an issue- which is fine, its what i wanted to know, yet you try and sell me on the t56 repeatedly when im making it abundantly clear that i need to find an alternative.

Frankly at this point i wouldnt put this on me being stubborn- id put it on you wasting your own time by either not understanding or not wanting to understand why the easiest course of action isnt the route im taking. You continue to run yourself around in circles when ive made it abundantly clear from the beginning that i wont get a t56 and am looking at alternatives.

 

[Injuneer]

Good luck.... you're going to need it

 

[1993TransAm]

🤦‍♂️