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97 Firebird Crank no start


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#1 Sharkboy

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  • Engine: 3.8L V6
  • Transmission: Automatic 4 Speed

Posted 03 August 2020 - 05:27 AM

Hello all, 

 

I have a 1997 Pontiac Firebird with the 3.8L that has a No Crank no start. diagnostics show no spark and no injector pulse. reviewing the scope of the crank and cam sensor showed poor scope pattern and replaced both cam and crank sensor with AcDelco components. When viewing the values for the 3x and 18x Crank sensor, vehicle Key on engine off (not cranking), shows a value of 68.843 RPM while the 3x sensor shows 0 RPM. Camshaft sensor signal request always shows as "YES" regardless of key on, key off, engine cranking, sensor unplugged, ect. I am trying to find an intricate diagram and values of what these sensors run off of. I know they get a reference voltage through my research on ALLDATA but cannot determine if they are supposed to be a 5v reference or what voltage reference. Vehicle has also had a VATS issue when I got it. The wire from the Lock tumbler had been cut going to the VTD. replaced with a new lock tumbler and cut proper keys to the vehicle that are within 10Ohm of the signal the VTD wants. (since I cannot get dead on with a specific key) Can anyone give some insight to a possible cause for this issue? The guy before me replaced the PCM with one out of a 1997 Malibu (That's what I pull up on my Launch scanner with the PCM connected.) and he also replaced the ICM and new Coils. 

 

Thanks in Advance

 

Nik. 

 



#2 Injuneer

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Posted 03 August 2020 - 05:47 AM

How about starting with a free download of the factory service manual, 1996 should be identical to 1997.  Courtesy of GaryDoug:

 

https://www.mediafir.../?40mfgeoe4ctti

Does your scanner show any codes?

 

Have no way to know if the incorrect PCM is compatible with your 3.8L. Do they have the same part #?

 

Is the SECURITY light on, indicating a problem with the PASS-Key II system?


1994 FIREBIRD FORMULA
FRED

 
381ci all-forged stroker (Callies Stealth, Oliver billet rods, BME 2618-T61 nitrous pistons) - 10.8:1 - CNC LT4 heads/intake - Comp Cams solid roller - MoTeC M48 Pro engine management - 8 LS1 coils - 58mm TB - 74#/HR injectors - 300-shot dry nitrous - TH400 - Gear Vendors 0.78:1 O/D - Strange 12-bolt - 4.11 Pro-Street gears - AS&M headers - true duals - Corbeau seat - AutoMeter gauges - roll bar - Spohn suspension - QA1 shocks - a few other odds 'n ends. 800HP / 800lb-ft at the flywheel, on a 300-shot. 11.5 @ 117 MPH straight motor
 
https://www.firebird...9_698_32777.jpg

 


#3 Sharkboy

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Posted 03 August 2020 - 06:42 AM

Injuneer, The scanner shows no codes. I cannot tell if the part numbers are the same or not. i am going to say no because when the Malibu PCM is in the wavelengths? for the Crank sensor are 24x and 3x while the firebird PCM (installed in the vehicle) show 18x and 3x

edit: the security light is on but shuts off after 5 seconds (bulb check) and i followed the diagnostic sheet provided by Bob under the tech articles and found no issues


Edited by Sharkboy, 03 August 2020 - 06:44 AM.


#4 Injuneer

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Posted 03 August 2020 - 09:22 AM

Did it start and run for "the guy before (you)", with the Malibu PCM?  Did it start and run after you purchased it with the Malibu PCM?

 

If the SECURITY light goes off after the bulb check, and does not start flashing, or remain constantly lighted, the key is not an issue.  If the key was an issue, the BCM would not allow the ground to the theft deterrent relay, and the starter would not operate.  The BCM also has to send a fixed frequency signal to the PCM to enable the fuel injectors.  The V8 models use a 50 Hz signal.  I have no idea if the V6 is the same, and have no idea what frequency the Malibu PCM is looking for. 

 

Do the injectors pulse when the starter is cranking the engine?

 

The ICM reads the 18X signal to determine which coil (cylinder pair) to fire first.  So spark should not be a problem.  Then the ICM sends the 18X and 3X signals to the PCM, and the PCM uses the 3X signal to start the injectors in the correct sequence. It wouldn't surprise me if the problem is that the PCM is expecting 8 18X pulses for each 3X pulse, but it's getting 6 18X pulses for each 3X pulse.  But I can't state that with any degree of certainty.

 

Look at Page 6E-53 for the startup sequence based on the CKP and CMP signals.  See page 6E-19 for the ignition control circuits.  Look at the detailed descriptions of P0336, and P0341 for voltages, etc.  


1994 FIREBIRD FORMULA
FRED

 
381ci all-forged stroker (Callies Stealth, Oliver billet rods, BME 2618-T61 nitrous pistons) - 10.8:1 - CNC LT4 heads/intake - Comp Cams solid roller - MoTeC M48 Pro engine management - 8 LS1 coils - 58mm TB - 74#/HR injectors - 300-shot dry nitrous - TH400 - Gear Vendors 0.78:1 O/D - Strange 12-bolt - 4.11 Pro-Street gears - AS&M headers - true duals - Corbeau seat - AutoMeter gauges - roll bar - Spohn suspension - QA1 shocks - a few other odds 'n ends. 800HP / 800lb-ft at the flywheel, on a 300-shot. 11.5 @ 117 MPH straight motor
 
https://www.firebird...9_698_32777.jpg

 


#5 sea dog

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Posted 03 August 2020 - 10:29 AM

Even if malibu uses the same part number as 97 firebird v6, it will have a different program flashed into from the factory. Even if computer lets car run, it will not run correctly because of the wrong program it contains.

 

You need to either, have the computer programed with 97 firebird v6 automatic program, or buy the correct computer with firebird program already inside.

 

Here are links. 1st is for a salvage yard search engine. You can search your state, region, or whole country, if needed. http://www.car-part.com

 

2nd link is to a good pcm tuner. You cvan send your pcm to him and he should be able to install original firebird program.http://www.lt1pcmtuning.com

 

After getting correct computer or program, we can work on getting your car running correctly.



#6 Sharkboy

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Posted 06 August 2020 - 09:25 AM

"Look at Page 6E-53 for the startup sequence based on the CKP and CMP signals.  See page 6E-19 for the ignition control circuits.  Look at the detailed descriptions of P0336, and P0341 for voltages, etc.  "

 

I cannot find the Pages you have listed, the Service manual for 96 goes from 6D5 (engine wiring) to 6F (exhaust)  there is no 6E. I do have a 6D4 (ignition System) will this reference the circuits like you were talking about?

 



#7 Injuneer

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  • Engine: 381ci LT1 stroker
  • Transmission: TH400 + GV O/D

Posted 06 August 2020 - 11:12 AM

Start with the basics- look at the “Contents” in the front.  There are four parts to the complete manual - Book 1/Part 1; Book 1/Part 2; Book 2/Part 1; Book 2/Part 2.  This gets confusing if you downloaded a version of the file that merges all books into a single file.

 

At the very top of the single file, or the very top of Book 1/Part 1 with individual files, the second page behind the cover shows the CONTENTS break down.  Correct, 6E is not in sequence with the pages you found in Book 1/Part 2.  It is in Book 2/Part 1, which would probably put it behind Section 11 in a combined file.  I have a set of four files for each individual book, and to me it’s a lot easier to find what I am looking for.






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