Cold Air Intake - Page 2 - All Things V6 - Firebird Nation

Jump to content


FirebirdNation.com is the premier Pontiac Firebird forum on the internet. Supporting Members do not see the above ads.
Photo
* * * * * 1 votes

Cold Air Intake


  • Please log in to reply
33 replies to this topic

#21 brarei200

brarei200

    Firebird Master Tech.

  • Full Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1458 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • First Name:Brandon
  • City:Birdsboro
  • State or Province:PA
  • Country:USA
  • Interests:Firebirds
    Motocross
    Computers
  • Year: 1997
  • Make: Pontiac
  • Model: Firebird
  • Engine: 3.8L v6
  • Transmission: Automatic

Posted 17 July 2011 - 11:55 AM

The K&N one is a Short Ram Intake? Does the (SLP) Cold Air Intake bring in more HP?
Posted Image

#22 SySTeMaT1c

SySTeMaT1c

    Tall

  • Full Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 760 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • First Name:Shea
  • City:Boscobel
  • State or Province:WI
  • Country:USA
  • Year: 1996
  • Make: Pontiac
  • Model: Firebird Y87
  • Engine: 3.8
  • Transmission: Auto

Posted 17 July 2011 - 07:10 PM

The K&N one is a Short Ram Intake? Does the (SLP) Cold Air Intake bring in more HP?


Maybe, It's kind of an awkward fit though. I'm not sure if the RKSport is short ram or not, it's what I would get though.
Posted Image

1996 Pontiac Firebird Y87: 3.42 Posi W/ Auborn LSD, 14.4:1 steering, Rear Disc, 275/40r17 Tires, WS6 T/A Wheels, AVS Tailshades



#23 Daso

Daso

    Firebird Newbie

  • New Member
  • Pip
  • 1 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • First Name:David
  • City:Wien
  • State or Province:CA
  • Country:Austria
  • Year: 1997
  • Make: Pontiac
  • Model: Firebird
  • Engine: 3.8L
  • Transmission: Auto

Posted 22 April 2020 - 02:45 PM

Hi, 

 

i have the same question for Firebird, same model, can someone else recommend SLP? I just find this one:

http://www.slponline...Air-Filter.html

 

David



#24 Injuneer

Injuneer

    Just Trying to Help

  • Administrator
  • 13599 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • First Name:Fred
  • City:Central NJ
  • State or Province:NJ
  • Country:USA
  • Interests:Licensed Professional Engineer (Mechanical)
  • Year: 1994
  • Make: Pontiac
  • Model: Firebird Formula
  • Engine: 381ci LT1 stroker
  • Transmission: TH400 + GV O/D

Posted 22 April 2020 - 03:31 PM

That's just the replacement air filter for an SLP cold air intake.  The entire unit includes a tube to route the air from the filter to the MAF sensor/throttle body.  SLP made the Blackwing for the 1994-1997 LT1 V8 models.  Don’t know if they ever made one for the 95-97 V6.

 

V8 model:

 

https://www.ebay.com...4-/303377924797

 

No longer on eBay, would take some work to adapt to the V6.


1994 FIREBIRD FORMULA
FRED

 
381ci all-forged stroker (Callies Stealth, Oliver billet rods, BME 2618-T61 nitrous pistons) - 10.8:1 - CNC LT4 heads/intake - Comp Cams solid roller - MoTeC M48 Pro engine management - 8 LS1 coils - 58mm TB - 74#/HR injectors - 300-shot dry nitrous - TH400 - Gear Vendors 0.78:1 O/D - Strange 12-bolt - 4.11 Pro-Street gears - AS&M headers - true duals - Corbeau seat - AutoMeter gauges - roll bar - Spohn suspension - QA1 shocks - a few other odds 'n ends. 800HP / 800lb-ft at the flywheel, on a 300-shot. 11.5 @ 117 MPH straight motor
 
https://www.firebird...9_698_32777.jpg

 


#25 tommy vercetti

tommy vercetti

    Firebird Oil Changer

  • Full Member
  • PipPipPip
  • 119 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • First Name:Tommy
  • City:desenzano del garda
  • State or Province:Other
  • Country:Italy
  • Year: 1997
  • Make: pontiac
  • Model: firebird
  • Engine: 3.8
  • Transmission: t 5

Posted 23 April 2020 - 06:30 AM

interesting thread, following



#26 tommy vercetti

tommy vercetti

    Firebird Oil Changer

  • Full Member
  • PipPipPip
  • 119 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • First Name:Tommy
  • City:desenzano del garda
  • State or Province:Other
  • Country:Italy
  • Year: 1997
  • Make: pontiac
  • Model: firebird
  • Engine: 3.8
  • Transmission: t 5

Posted 25 May 2020 - 05:47 AM

hey guys,

just installed a kn cone filter, will deal with piping later.

Attached Files



#27 Injuneer

Injuneer

    Just Trying to Help

  • Administrator
  • 13599 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • First Name:Fred
  • City:Central NJ
  • State or Province:NJ
  • Country:USA
  • Interests:Licensed Professional Engineer (Mechanical)
  • Year: 1994
  • Make: Pontiac
  • Model: Firebird Formula
  • Engine: 381ci LT1 stroker
  • Transmission: TH400 + GV O/D

Posted 25 May 2020 - 07:32 AM

Except that's not a “cold air intake”.  Now, instead of pulling in cool outside air like the factory air box does, you are feeding the engine hot air from the engine compartment.



#28 tommy vercetti

tommy vercetti

    Firebird Oil Changer

  • Full Member
  • PipPipPip
  • 119 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • First Name:Tommy
  • City:desenzano del garda
  • State or Province:Other
  • Country:Italy
  • Year: 1997
  • Make: pontiac
  • Model: firebird
  • Engine: 3.8
  • Transmission: t 5

Posted 27 May 2020 - 05:37 AM

Except that's not a “cold air intake”.  Now, instead of pulling in cool outside air like the factory air box does, you are feeding the engine hot air from the engine compartment.

no worries, it's still a work in progress. 

just got the filter i wanted (1st step).



#29 tommy vercetti

tommy vercetti

    Firebird Oil Changer

  • Full Member
  • PipPipPip
  • 119 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • First Name:Tommy
  • City:desenzano del garda
  • State or Province:Other
  • Country:Italy
  • Year: 1997
  • Make: pontiac
  • Model: firebird
  • Engine: 3.8
  • Transmission: t 5

Posted 4 weeks ago

Hi guys,

back on this.

 

couple of "wonderings" i've been wondering about.

 

1) plastic/composite is better than aluminum for performance due to heat transfer (purpose of COLD air intake).

it's much easier to find aluminum piping than plastic ones...why? also, plastic ones aren't really any cheaper....again, why?

 

2) i was taking a look to piping built with a mix of paper (like an outside cover) and aluminum material (on the inside) beacuse it's super easy to install and because it's flexible and squeezable if needed.

i don't like that the inside of it because it ain't flat and smooth which is gonna reduce air speed.

what i like is that the paper will give a good insulating condition and they are pretty cheap honestly.

 

3) best mix would be to find some plastic piping connected with silicone joints and elbows.

 

what do you think?

thanks

 

 

ps: i know i have a tiny 3.8 and i won't make a ton of horses lol


Edited by tommy vercetti, 4 weeks ago.


#30 ZumpTA

ZumpTA

    Firebird Master Tech.

  • Administrator
  • 2021 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • First Name:Tony
  • City:Holiday
  • State or Province:FL
  • Country:USA
  • Year: 1993
  • Make: Pontiac
  • Model: Trans Am
  • Engine: LT1
  • Transmission: 6-Spd

Posted 4 weeks ago

When I bought my Trans Am, it had a CAI made from white PVC plumbing pipe.  There was nothing wrong with it.


"There are two major products that come out of Berkeley: LSD and UNIX.
We don't believe this to be a coincidence."
-- Jeremy S. Anderson

"Man is the best computer we can put aboard a spacecraft...
and the only one that can be mass produced with unskilled labor."
-- Wernher von Braun


#31 JoePeek

JoePeek

    Firebird Master Tech.

  • Full Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1418 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • First Name:Joe
  • City:Westfield
  • State or Province:IN
  • Country:USA
  • Year: 1971
  • Make: Pontiac
  • Model: Trans Am
  • Engine: 455 HO
  • Transmission: 4 speed

Posted 4 weeks ago

So what kind of tuning is needed when colder air, with a higher flowing filter is installed. Will the fuel trims make up for the change? I've tuned pure MAF engines where the MAF sensor is in the intake tube. If you change the diameter of the pipe you have to change the MAF curve in the tune. Are these 1996 and newer OBD2 cars pure Speed/Density? Do you need to mess with the VE table ?



#32 Injuneer

Injuneer

    Just Trying to Help

  • Administrator
  • 13599 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • First Name:Fred
  • City:Central NJ
  • State or Province:NJ
  • Country:USA
  • Interests:Licensed Professional Engineer (Mechanical)
  • Year: 1994
  • Make: Pontiac
  • Model: Firebird Formula
  • Engine: 381ci LT1 stroker
  • Transmission: TH400 + GV O/D

Posted 4 weeks ago

All V8's 1994 and newer are mass air. The 3.8L V6 (subject of this thread) is mass air.  In the event of MAF sensor failure, these systems default to mass air.  So technically, VE is important, but not a major factor.

 

The MAF sensor is a hot-wire anemometer.  Good design practice is to keep the ducting uniform and straight for at least "10 diameters" in front of the meter.  But having a 30" straight run in front of a 3" MAF is not practical,  So the key is to design the duct by minimizing things that change the distribution of air flow into the meter.  In the 4th Gen V8 models, GM used a "screen" in front of the MAF sensor to provide more uniform flow across the open area of the meter.  But the V8's use a stand-alone meter, located some distance in front of the throttle body - few inches on the LS1 with the sensor in a straight run from the airbox to the throttle body, a longer distance in fornt on the LT1, where the sensor is before the 90-deg elbow that connects to the throttle body.  In the 3.8L V6, the MAF sensor is physically inserted into the throttle body.

 

Key factors to consider in the design of a CAI:

 

1 - Make sure the filter is located in an area where the air is actually cooler than the factory location.  The factory airbox pulls air in from in front of the radiator bulkhead.

 

2 - Make sure the ducting minimizes pressure losses.

 

3 - Make sure the ducting does not make major changes to the calibration of the MAF sensor.

 

Anything that increases pressure drop in the duct will reduce power.  You have to understand the concept of volume flow vs.  mass flow.  The engine can only consume a fixed volume of air.  That is defined by engine displacement X RPM X 1/2.  Let's leave VE out for now to keep it simple.  Since the volume of air is fixed, the only way to make power is to increase the (absolute) pressure of the air in the cylinders, or reduce the temperature of the air, which increases the mass (pounds) of air in the cylinder.  A greater mass of air can be combined with a greater mass of fuel to produce more thermal energy (BTU's) that force the piston downward. 

 

What causes pressure drop in the air duct - a small filter, a dirty filter, small diameter pipe, longer pipe, small radius bends, sudden contractions or enlargements, irregular interior duct walls (like corrugated clothes dryer tube which seems to be mentioned in a post above).  Bigger is generally better, but at some point there are diminishing returns.  If you have a 3" MAF sensor, a 3" pipe is probably all you need.  If you feel a 4" pipe is better, make sure the transition from 4" to the 3" sensor is a tapered transition, and not a sharp edged transition.  While a 6" pipe will produce even less pressure loss, the change is so small that is isn't worth the trouble. Make sure the interior walls of the pipe and couplings are smooth.  Make sure any bends are "long radius", not sharp 90-deg bends.

 

Minimizing disruption of the MAF calibration table is harder.  The MAF sensor measures mass air flow by heating a wire to a fixed number of degrees above the temperature of the incoming air.  It measures the electrical energy required to maintain the wire temperature, and converts this to a variable frequency, ranging from 2,000-10,000 Hz, and sends that signal to the PCM.  The PCM looks up the Hz value in a programmed calibration table of Hz. vs. mass air flow (grams/second).  The mass of air is divided by the target A/F ratio, to determine the mass of fuel required, and setting the injector pulse width to deliver that mass of fuel.  Why is a calibration table required?  Because the wire is only touching a small portion of the air flow through the sensor, ahd the distribution of air velocity inside the sensor tube varies depending on the flow regime - laminar vs. turbulent for example.

 

If the calibration is "off" by a little bit, the PCM can correct for errors in fuel delivery with the "long term fuel trims" (LTFT), based on feedback from the O2 sensors.  But there are limits to the amount of change the LTFT's can correct.  One of the popular changes on the V8 MAF sensors was to delete the "screen" and "port" the inside of the sensor body. Turned out this is the worst possible thing to do.  I've seen V6 owners asking about cutting away what appear to be obstructions in the MAF sensor element that seem to block flow.  Don't do it.  It changes the calibration to a point that experienced tuners have a problem getting the calibration table right.  Experience has shown that the popular CAI kits like the K&N, SLP, Moroso/Callaway, etc. do not have a significant impact on the calibration.  A homemade design needs to be well thought out.

 

As far as temperature and heat transfer of plastic vs. metal, plastic will be better, assuming it's not paper thin, reducing the amount of heat picked up as the air passes through the duct in the engine compartment.  Couple things to keep in mind.  The heat transfer is less important as the velocity of air in the pipe increases.  At idle, the air will pick up heat, but at WOT 5,000 RPM the temperature increase is going to be significantly lower.  And, remember, the impact of temperature on the density of the air is related to ABSOLUTE temperature change.  And that is calculated in degrees Kelvin (add 273-deg to your thermometer reading) or degrees Rankine (add 460-deg to the thermometer reading).  IF you want to use metal pipe, stainless would be better than aluminum, or figure a way to add a bit of thermal insulation to the pipe.


  • JoePeek and tommy vercetti like this

1994 FIREBIRD FORMULA
FRED

 
381ci all-forged stroker (Callies Stealth, Oliver billet rods, BME 2618-T61 nitrous pistons) - 10.8:1 - CNC LT4 heads/intake - Comp Cams solid roller - MoTeC M48 Pro engine management - 8 LS1 coils - 58mm TB - 74#/HR injectors - 300-shot dry nitrous - TH400 - Gear Vendors 0.78:1 O/D - Strange 12-bolt - 4.11 Pro-Street gears - AS&M headers - true duals - Corbeau seat - AutoMeter gauges - roll bar - Spohn suspension - QA1 shocks - a few other odds 'n ends. 800HP / 800lb-ft at the flywheel, on a 300-shot. 11.5 @ 117 MPH straight motor
 
https://www.firebird...9_698_32777.jpg

 


#33 brarei200

brarei200

    Firebird Master Tech.

  • Full Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1458 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • First Name:Brandon
  • City:Birdsboro
  • State or Province:PA
  • Country:USA
  • Interests:Firebirds
    Motocross
    Computers
  • Year: 1997
  • Make: Pontiac
  • Model: Firebird
  • Engine: 3.8L v6
  • Transmission: Automatic

Posted 2 weeks ago

Old thread lol.

I bought the SLP CAI with the LT1 intake elbow and I couldn't get it on my (now sold) 97 Firebird so I ended up selling that setup.

I then bought the chrome Cold Air Intakes on eBay and surprisingly it worked pretty good, I didn't notice any HP but it sounded cool and I got about 1-2 MPG increase.
Posted Image

#34 tommy vercetti

tommy vercetti

    Firebird Oil Changer

  • Full Member
  • PipPipPip
  • 119 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • First Name:Tommy
  • City:desenzano del garda
  • State or Province:Other
  • Country:Italy
  • Year: 1997
  • Make: pontiac
  • Model: firebird
  • Engine: 3.8
  • Transmission: t 5

Posted 4 days ago

Old thread lol.

I bought the SLP CAI with the LT1 intake elbow and I couldn't get it on my (now sold) 97 Firebird so I ended up selling that setup.

I then bought the chrome Cold Air Intakes on eBay and surprisingly it worked pretty good, I didn't notice any HP but it sounded cool and I got about 1-2 MPG increase.

hi, any pic of your set up?

thanks






1 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 1 guests, 0 anonymous users