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Gauges Rate Topic: -----

#1 User is offline   TheDon619 

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Posted 11 December 2008 - 07:42 PM

Ok i just bought the 3 pod A piller thing and looking at a few gauges to fill her up. I want a A/F my questions is do i need narrow or wide, which is better and what do i need to do it? and what would you suggest to fill the other 2 slots? ill need them for boost eventually and maybe somethign else but now there just open so might as well stick something in there thats useful
1995 Firebird Formula 355LT1 Auto

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#2 User is offline   TheDon619 

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Posted 12 December 2008 - 07:45 PM

no one knows about gauges? :B): bump.
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#3 User is offline   rusnrno 

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Posted 12 December 2008 - 07:52 PM

I don't know about the A/F gauge, but a good oil pressure gauge and maybe trans temp.
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RIP Jay
I miss you already Bro'.
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1996 Formula
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#4 User is offline   TheDon619 

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Posted 12 December 2008 - 07:56 PM

there problems with the stock oil pressure unit?
1995 Firebird Formula 355LT1 Auto

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#5 User is offline   Injuneer 

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Posted 12 December 2008 - 08:38 PM

Your car has stock narrow-band O2 sensors. You can get a low cost A/F ratio gauge that taps into the signal wire for one of the two stock sensors. That will do little more than provide a psychedelic light show, because in normal closed loop (part throttle) operation, the stock O2 sensors will swing rapidly (9 times per second) back and forth from "rich" to "lean" and back. At WOT, it will simply indicate "rich". About the only thing it will show accurately is a complete failure of an O2 sensor. Then there's the issue of which side of the exhaust do you hook the gauge up to, or do you run both sides to a single pole-double throw sitch to allow you to choose which sensor you want to monitor.

The stock narrow-band sensors are only accurate at an A/F ratio of 14.7:1, +/- 0.1 A/F units. Once the sensors operate outside the narrow range of 14.6 - 14.8:1, they accuracy suffers. A very large change in A/F ratio produces a relatively small change in sensor voltage. And, this small change in voltage is masked by the sensor's very high sensitivity to operating temperature. A small change in operating temp will produce a larger change in sensor output voltage that a large change in A/F ratio. That's why most of the A/F gauges don't even bother to label the A/F ratio with a numerical value, because they know its not accurate.

14.7:1 is only used by the PCM in closed loop, part throttle operation. That't because that is the A/F ratio that produces the lowest COMBINED levels of the pollutants CO, HC and NOx. That (and the tiny oscillations to either side of 14.7:1) is the A/F ratio the catalytic converters are designed to work at. Its also an A/F ratio that will produce decent fuel milage. You could get bettern fuel MPG running at maybe 16.0:1, but that leaner A/F ratio would increase NOx pollution. At WOT, you engine will typically make peak power/torque in the range of 12.8 - 13.2:1. Stock sensors are not accurate at that level.

So... if you want usable data from an A/F ratio gauge, you have to get an wide-band controller package that includes a wide-band sensor, and a gauge. Then you would have to add another O2 sensor bung to one side of your exhaust, or go with dual wide-band sensors/gauges, and add bungs to both branches of the exhaust. It is possible to get a wide-band controller that allows you to put the wide band sensors in the stock pre-cat O2 sensor positions, and then takes the wide-band's 0-5V operating range output signal and translates it to an independant 0-1V signal that emulates the stock narrow-band sensors, and allows the wide-band sensors to feed the stock PCM.

A single sensor wide band controller and gauge is probably $250 minimum, and a full boat dual-sensor setup will be pushing $600. If interested, look at the Innovate Motorsports LM-1. Or for a really high-tech dual-sensor setup, with data logging and lean A/F ratio alarms and interlocks for something like the nitrous solenoids, look at the Altronics unit.

http://www.innovatem...om/products.php

http://www.altronicsinc.com/

As far as the other stock gauges, there's really nothing wrong with them. I run AutoMeter Sport Comp gauges:

-fuel pressure (electronic)
-nitrous pressure (mechanical)
-oil pressure (mechanical)
-oil temperature (electronic)
-trans temperature (electronic)

Couple that with the ScanMaster LT1, that allows real time display of a choice from about 20 different sensor and PCM parameters, and you end up with data overload..... :B):

http://www.injuneer....r/DCP03460a.jpg
http://www.injuneer....or/DCP02679.jpg
http://www.injuneer....r/DCP04287a.jpg
http://www.injuneer....or/DCP04309.jpg
1994 FIREBIRD FORMULA

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381ci all-forged stroker - 10.8:1 - CNC LT4 heads/intake - CC solid roller - MoTeC engine management - 8 LS1 coils - 58mm TB - 78# injectors - 300-shot dry nitrous - TH400 - Gear Vendor O/D - Strange 12-bolt - 4.11's - AS&M headers - duals - Corbeau seat - AutoMeter gauges - roll bar - Spohn suspension - QA1 shocks - a few other odds 'n ends. 800HP/800lb-ft at the flywheel, on a 300-shot. 11.5 @ 117MPH straight motor
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#6 User is offline   TheDon619 

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Posted 12 December 2008 - 09:23 PM

wow so much info lol. ok so wideband is better but a simple kit is 200 bucks i see. btw your car is amazing lol.just tossing that out there. i may go narrow band just to fill the hole untill i get into some serious money on the thing. then a wideband would be a must, a trans temp once i rebuild my trans is a must, leave thes other one. idc bout fuel i got that meseured out pretty good with the stock gauge. oil pressure, the stocker works fine for me never had a problem with oil pressure....i dont have No2....so many choices!!! lol thank you fred for the huge amount of information that im pretty sure only you know ha, you should really write a book or something, make tons of money.
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#7 User is offline   FSTLS1TA 

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Posted 13 December 2008 - 06:44 AM

I am running a Autometer Cobalt Wideband gauge. Hardest part was getting someone to weld the new o2 bung in my Ypipe. running the wires was easy. i would go with a wideband set up if you plan on doing heads and cam and other mods later on so the car can get tuned right.Attached File  3834163276.jpg (91.93K)
Number of downloads: 4
Sold but not forgotten. 443rwhp/411rwtq, 12.11 at 115.57mph, 5% Black Tint all the way around, Black C6 Z06 Deep Dish Corvette Rims, Ventslide Black Taillight Covers, Pacesetter LT Headers with TSP Rumbler Exhaust, SLP Airlid with Holley Powershot Airfilter, SLP Smooth Bellow, Tuned By Ragin Racin, Descreened MAF EGR/AIR Delete, No CATS, BMR Subframe Connectors, Eibach Lowering Springs, SLP Bilstein Struts on the front, Comp Drag Shocks on the rear, UMI Lower Control Arms, UMI Panhard Bar, UMI Adjustable Torque Arm w. Driveshaft Safteyloop, Pro 5.0 Shifter with a Lou's Short Stick, SLP Line Lock, Powerslot Double Drilled and Slotted Rotors, LS7 Clutch with LS2 Flywheel, Mcloed Adjustable Master Cylinder,Taylor 10.4mm Race Wires, LS6 Intake and PP 85mm Throttle Body, Track Rims & Tires(Rear Weld Rims and M/T ET Streets, Front Summitracing Sports and Nexas Skinnies), PRC 5.3L Stage 2.5 CNC Ported Heads, ARP Head and Cam Bolts, Torquer V2 Cam, 37lb Fuel Injectors, LS7 Lifters, Harden Pushrods,Yella Terra Roller Rockers, JP LS2 Timing Chain, Ported LS6 Oil Pump, LS6 PCV System. Moser 9 Inch Rearend with 4.11 gears 31 Spline Axles and Detroit Tru-Trac Posi Unit.

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#8 User is offline   rusnrno 

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Posted 13 December 2008 - 09:07 AM

View PostInjuneer, on Dec 12 2008, 08:38 PM, said:

Couple that with the ScanMaster LT1, that allows real time display of a choice from about 20 different sensor and PCM parameters, and you end up with data overload..... :B):

Attached File  DCP04309.jpg (176.72K)
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Data overload looks pretty cool Fred!


View PostTheDon619, on Dec 12 2008, 09:23 PM, said:

idc bout fuel i got that meseured out pretty good with the stock gauge. oil pressure, the stocker works fine for me never had a problem with oil pressure...


Fred was talking about fuel pressure Don, not fuel level.

This post has been edited by rusnrno: 13 December 2008 - 09:08 AM

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RIP Jay
I miss you already Bro'.
RIP-Brother Rat
1996 Formula
LT1, M6,Eaton Posi, Moser Axles, 4.10 Gears
CC305 Cam, Crane 10308-1 Valve Springs, Crane 11746 NSA 1.6 Full Roller Rockers, Trik Flow pushrods, LT4 timing set, Accel injectors, OBD1 conversion, CATS tuning software,
ARP head bolts and rocker studs,
no AC, no AIR, PCM tuned by ME, Pacesetter LT headers, no cats, SLP fan switch, UMI Lower Control Arms, UMI Panhard Bar, UMI LCA Relocation Brackets, UMI Tunnel mount Torque Arm, Edelbrock Strut tower bar, Billet valve covers, Drop Zone 1.8" lowering springs, LT4 Knock module, MSD6AL Ignition, Taylor Wires, B&M Shifter, Hypertech 160 T-stat, Power Slot brake rotors, Ram Air hood(functional), TA front bumper, Home-built "Stealth" sub enclosures, Torque Thrust II wheels with 275/40/17s, Toyo Proxes Drag Radials
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#9 User is offline   TheDon619 

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Posted 13 December 2008 - 08:56 PM

ah alright, that makes sense i suppose lol. well time to save money for a duel wideband O2 i suppose xmas gift maybe lol
1995 Firebird Formula 355LT1 Auto

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#10 User is offline   bioskyline 

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Posted 13 December 2008 - 10:32 PM

View PostTheDon619, on Dec 13 2008, 08:56 PM, said:

ah alright, that makes sense i suppose lol. well time to save money for a duel wideband O2 i suppose xmas gift maybe lol


dont know if this will work for your car, but should. i used azeitronix wideband o2 on my 88 supra

http://www.zeitronix.com/

the full kit with the screen cost me about 400 bucks from 935motorsports. as the supra only had the 1 o2 sensor. you could get a bung welded in down blew in your Y pipe (or H pipe if your running dual). worked mint for me.
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#11 User is offline   TheDon619 

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Posted 14 December 2008 - 08:21 AM

that looks neat, would it be better to remove the 2 O2 sensor set up the firsbird has and make it 1...or does the 95 only have 1? i know i didnt have on in the cat and it was pre cat so im not sure what all i need here. (keep in mind this is not a urgent thing just want to get all my info stright first)
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#12 User is offline   Injuneer 

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Posted 14 December 2008 - 04:48 PM

The LT1 PCM needs both the left and right pre-cat O2 sensors. Each bank of the engine (cyls 1/3/5/7 - driver's side; 2/4/6/8 -passenger side) is controlled independantly, with regard to fueling. The feedback from the drivers side pre-cat O2 sensor tells the PCM if its calculating the A/F ratio correctly for cylinders 1/3/5/7. If it isn't, the PCM uses temprary adjustments (short term fuel corrections, or "integrators") to correct the A/F ratio on the driver's side. Once it sees that a particular level of short term correction is always needed ("learns"), it makes a permanent change to the calculation (long term fuel corrections = block learn multipliers = BLM's). This is the majority of what the PCM can "learn" about your engine. It saves the BLM's in volatile memory. If you pull the power to the PCM, you lose those corrections and the PCM has to start all over again. To make it even more confusing, for each bank of the engine, there are 18 different BLM's (cells), that correspond to various operating conditions - Cells 1 -15 are arranged in a grid as a function of RPM and engine load (MAP), Cell 16 = idle, Cell 17 = decel, Cell 18 = open loop load. Then there's a whole duplicate system for the passenger side of the engine.

The 1993-1995 LT1's had only one catalytic converter. It is under the passenger side floorboard, at the point where the left and right branches of the Y-pipe combine. The one exception is the 1995 CA emissions, A4 engines. They had dual cats, in a configuration similar to the dual-cat setup used on the 96/97 LT1's. There is cat bolted directly to the driver's side exhaust manifold, and a cat in the passenger branch of the Y-pipe, under the passenger floorboard.

93-95 have only pre-cat O2 sensors. They are the ones that the PCM used to control the A/F ratio. In 96/97 they added two more after-cat sensors. They are required by OBD-II to determine if the cats are still there and working correctly. They do not serve any engine control functions, just an emissions-related check.
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381ci all-forged stroker - 10.8:1 - CNC LT4 heads/intake - CC solid roller - MoTeC engine management - 8 LS1 coils - 58mm TB - 78# injectors - 300-shot dry nitrous - TH400 - Gear Vendor O/D - Strange 12-bolt - 4.11's - AS&M headers - duals - Corbeau seat - AutoMeter gauges - roll bar - Spohn suspension - QA1 shocks - a few other odds 'n ends. 800HP/800lb-ft at the flywheel, on a 300-shot. 11.5 @ 117MPH straight motor
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#13 User is offline   bloodpool 

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Posted 14 December 2008 - 10:56 PM

Glowshift has a wideband o2 for 200 but you have to cut and weld the holding bracket they have decent gauges ive had mine for about 6mos i havent had any problems.

This gauge is the 7 color black tho they do come in different styles this is the one i want.
GlowShifts Black Face Wideband Air/ Fuel Gauge offers a unique combination of high quality and high performance features, while still offering an attractive and affordable price. All GlowShift Wideband Air / Fuel Gauges utilize Boschs LSU 4.9 Wideband Oxygen Sensor. The LSU 4.9 is integrated and included with our gauge. Unlike other wideband gauges that use the older Bosch 4.2 sensors. The face sports a digital numeric LED air / fuel ratio read out display, along with a three color LED bar display. This three color display quickly indicates the lean, optimal or rich values while the digital LED read out give the precise air / fuel ratio from your vehicles engine, accurate to one decimal place. This allows for easy tuning on any vehicle. All GlowShift Wideband Air / Fuel Gauges come complete with a 4.9 Bosch wideband Oxygen sensor, weld in bung, sensor wiring harness, and a digital wideband controller unit. Full installation instructions, a 1 year limited warranty and free technical support also ship with our gauges. This gauge is intended to match the GlowShift Black 7 Color Series Gauges; however it does change colors due to the dual read out and display design of the gauge.
  • 52mm (2 1/16 inch) black face with magnified lens
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I also own a tri pillar.
at orileys meet 12/13/08 it was cold...
http://c4.ac-images.myspacecdn.com/images02/5/l_0e2994106d4740408266887892ca8c0f.jpg

( top to bottom ,this pic is upside down / tilted... so left to right ) oil press, volt meter, oil temp
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was taken at my house 3mos ago the car was on but not started.
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To much blue and I hate red... especially when both are flashing behind my car... Still green!
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#14 User is offline   FSTLS1TA 

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Posted 15 December 2008 - 06:16 AM

Never trust off named brand gauges. Go with Autometer.
Sold but not forgotten. 443rwhp/411rwtq, 12.11 at 115.57mph, 5% Black Tint all the way around, Black C6 Z06 Deep Dish Corvette Rims, Ventslide Black Taillight Covers, Pacesetter LT Headers with TSP Rumbler Exhaust, SLP Airlid with Holley Powershot Airfilter, SLP Smooth Bellow, Tuned By Ragin Racin, Descreened MAF EGR/AIR Delete, No CATS, BMR Subframe Connectors, Eibach Lowering Springs, SLP Bilstein Struts on the front, Comp Drag Shocks on the rear, UMI Lower Control Arms, UMI Panhard Bar, UMI Adjustable Torque Arm w. Driveshaft Safteyloop, Pro 5.0 Shifter with a Lou's Short Stick, SLP Line Lock, Powerslot Double Drilled and Slotted Rotors, LS7 Clutch with LS2 Flywheel, Mcloed Adjustable Master Cylinder,Taylor 10.4mm Race Wires, LS6 Intake and PP 85mm Throttle Body, Track Rims & Tires(Rear Weld Rims and M/T ET Streets, Front Summitracing Sports and Nexas Skinnies), PRC 5.3L Stage 2.5 CNC Ported Heads, ARP Head and Cam Bolts, Torquer V2 Cam, 37lb Fuel Injectors, LS7 Lifters, Harden Pushrods,Yella Terra Roller Rockers, JP LS2 Timing Chain, Ported LS6 Oil Pump, LS6 PCV System. Moser 9 Inch Rearend with 4.11 gears 31 Spline Axles and Detroit Tru-Trac Posi Unit.

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#15 User is offline   SVTBAIT 

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Posted 15 December 2008 - 07:25 AM

If you plan on going boosted later I would suggest:

Fuel Pressure (Electric)
Wideband A/F
Boost
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#16 User is offline   TheDon619 

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Posted 15 December 2008 - 08:25 PM

i got the glowshift tri pillar, and did like their gauges as well, i may have to go with them. autometer is also good ive been shopping around esp for the wideband. ill buy the boost when its time for that, itll be a long while.
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Posted 18 December 2008 - 06:58 PM

View PostSom6969, on Dec 15 2008, 08:16 AM, said:

Never trust off named brand gauges. Go with Autometer.


I agree with with this same statement I wouldn't trust them with a boost gauge vanity gauges like volt, oil temp and pressure water temp are not that important and come stock with the car... to explain this statement before i get chewed up. unless you have dramatic hp your oil press wont go over 100 psi, temp gauges or merely thermostats you can buy thermostats at a dollar store. big S**t gauges like boost, nos, exhaust temp( pyro ), air/fuel if your really into tuning and have to know the air-to-fuel ratio...with spray im guessing...these gauges aren't the best I don't know this for sure but personally I would go with something with a history and rep.

:B): ... if your like me and just looking to add some S**t to your car till you can get a v8 swap and have no plans of making over 600hp when you do have the v8 just enough to beat most 4-8cyl imports who talk trash as their car screams off and leaves black/grey/white/hint of blue smoke then talk S**t at the next light seeing that you were not racing them but just going to work because its not worth the ticket beating a car you know you can beat...then its all looks.

i know your thinking its " rice " but look into apex-i, garret, stillen and greddy the make boost gauges i say these companies becuase they support more imports as we know most big S**t import cars...350z, GT-R skyline, 300zx, rx-7, rx-8, supra, solora, 240sx have lots of turbo stuff from these companies and some of these cars come stock with these from the factory. just an extra option to use a gauge that comes from the makers of turbo and superchargers... whipple and vortec might have some also the GM gauge on stock sc/tc model cars ...but gm gauges will cost more.

This post has been edited by bloodpool: 18 December 2008 - 07:07 PM

Posted Image

To much blue and I hate red... especially when both are flashing behind my car... Still green!
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#18 User is offline   TheDon619 

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Posted 19 December 2008 - 08:58 PM

thanks for the input im a ways away from turbo tho
1995 Firebird Formula 355LT1 Auto

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A


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#19 User is offline   countryboy 

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Posted 20 December 2008 - 10:15 AM

;) I agree with svtbait for the pod. you might as well spend the money on the right stuff instead of buying things you wont use later.

I have been using equis guages in my circle track cars for about a year with great results they resemble the autometer guages and work. If your just putting some in for now they are alot cheaper. also autometer makes the autoguage line as a cheap alt.


:B): Jr
Understeer: When you hit the wall with the front of the car
Oversteer: When you hit the wall with the back of the car
Horsepower: How fast you hit the wall
Torque: How far you take the wall with you
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#20 User is offline   countryboy 

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Posted 20 December 2008 - 10:23 AM

http://www.iequus.co...category_id=100

sorry spelled it wrong lol
Understeer: When you hit the wall with the front of the car
Oversteer: When you hit the wall with the back of the car
Horsepower: How fast you hit the wall
Torque: How far you take the wall with you
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